Evolution and an Orthodox Patristic understanding of Genesis

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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What do you believe vis a vis Creationism vs. Darwinism?

I believe in creationism like the Holy Fathers and Bible teach

20
83%

I believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and think the Church Fathers were wrong

2
8%

I am not sure yet, I need to read more Patristics and scientific theories

2
8%
 
Total votes: 24

Pravoslavnik
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Life Without Death

Post by Pravoslavnik »

Dear C.V.,

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      You didn't answer my questions, again.  Do you grasp the concept that time passes at different rates in the universe as a function of relative velocity?  Do you understand the point that six 24 hour days have elapsed during the 15 billion years of earth-time when time is measured from the theoretical point at which the Big Bang occurred?  Whether or not you accept the concept of the Big Bang, do you understand the conept of relativity and time as a function of relative velocity?

        You assert that nothing on earth ever died until the homo sapien Adam sinned, and was cast out of the special garden that the Lord created for him (Adam.)  What about all of the eons of fossilized animals and plants that have been reliably dated to the Mesozoic, Jurassic, Cambrian, and pre-Cambrian eras of earth's history, millions, and even billions, of years ago?  Do you sincerely believe that the great dinosaurs of earth's Jurassic era walked the earth with homo sapiens a few thousand years ago, during the Neolithic era of human history, somewhat like the cartoon depictions of life in the [i]Flintstones[/i]?

          There are serious problems, analytically, for the various "theories" proposed by Protestant Fundamentalists who dislike Darwinian evolutionary theory.  Professor Kenneth Miller outlines how these alternative theories--Young Earth Creationism, Intelligent Design, etc.-- fail to explain the data, the facts, of paleobiology in his excellent, scholarly book [i]Finding Darwin's God[/i].  In contrast, Darwin's theory offers an elegant, explanatory mechanism for the paleobiological data that has accumulated during the past two centuries.

         Rather than repeating these points over and over again, I will simply advise you, once again, to do some careful study and review of the scientific data on these subjects, rather than sniffing and passing around the Protestant Fundamentalist horse manure that you have been reading.  Read Kenneth Miller and Gerald Schroeder.  

Adios!

--Pravoslavnik

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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

You didn't answer my questions, again. Do you grasp the concept that time passes at different rates in the universe as a function of relative velocity? Do you understand the point that six 24 hour days have elapsed during the 15 billion years of earth-time when time is measured from the theoretical point at which the Big Bang occurred? Whether or not you accept the concept of the Big Bang, do you understand the conept of relativity and time as a function of relative velocity?

call me crazy, but i dont think God was playing tricks with Moses' mind, calling on "science" that would come along thousands of years after him. maybe thats just me.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Pravoslavnik,

A scientific theory is a causal explanation for a corpus of empirical data--of facts that are gathered through scientific observation and measurement

I agree. But, the evolutionists would have to be present at the time that the formation of the rocks are being evolved into another lifeform.

An example is Isaac Newton's theory of gravitation, which was a comprehensive explanation for the observed natural motion of bodies.

This is real observation. He was there at the time. But, just the same, you don't need theory of gravity to prove that gravity exists...we live it everyday. Just like you don't need a theory of oxygen to know that it keeps us alive.

Charles Darwin spent a great deal of time observing and studying available data of various world fauna and fossils before elaborating his theory of the origin of species through a process of natural selection.

He made it up from his imagination. I can pick up a fossil and say: hey, here's a fossil of a fish, but I can't determine that it developed from another species.

Natural selection works based on the environment a species lives in. Some species die out because they can't adapt to their environment and situation of survial, for whatever reason. But, that doesn't explain his theory of evolving, BY NATRUAL selection, into another species. A fish does not grow legs because he plops on the land and can breath without water...that is creating a whole new air-breathing species and it doesn't work like that. It is a child's fairy tale.

Since its publication, a vast amount of additional biological data has accumulated in support of the basic theory.

And a mass amount of scientists have disputed it.

Other modern biologists, like Kenneth Miller, have argued that the punctuated equilibrium concept is much ado about nothing. If you are interested in a quality summary of this whole issue, and data base, I cannot recommend Finding Darwin's God too highly, all the more so in that Dr. Miller is a Christian (Roman Catholic) who is critical of the way that some scientists, like Gould, have inappropriately tried to use scientific findings to "debunk" religious beliefs.

Since we are talking about secular explanations, I much prefer Dr. Kent Hovind.

Rather, the evolutionary theory is based upon the observed data. It is a mechanistic attempt to explain the sequential data, the facts.

How can evolution of species be observable data? A person would have to have been there to observe it.

The whole enterprise of science is based upon empirical observations being integrated into explanatory theories and natural laws about the cosmos.

No. The whole enterprise of science is based upon empirical observations that are FACTS. A theory implies an opinion that MAYBE, it happened this way. Science, STATES that in FACT, it IS happening or happened this way.

A scientist finds a fossil of a fish. The scientist can say, in FACT, that one, it was a fish and two that it died. The scientist cannot say that the fish fossil had babies or that it developed from a rock.

Others, like you and me, believe that the "truth" about the cosmos can also be revealed to us by God, speaking through Holy Men and Women, including the Incarnate God, Himself.

You say, "also". I don't believe in also...I believe in first, God and science can

also

support it, because God is the Creator and created the elements of science that we study. Science is basically the attempt of mankind to believe in God, because faith is not enough.

You see, God created the earth and the universe and gave us an intellect, to first contemplate Him and worship Him and second to learn about Him in the world that He created for us. Because in studying the nature He created, He also left a plethora of trademarks in order for our souls to recognize Him and marvel about His wonderous creations.

But, the evolutionists have an equation that eliminates His Glory. They reduce it to a form of imagination and speculation and lose the faith which is witnessed in the Holy Bible and by the holy fathers and saints(of Orthodoxy).

The evolutionists preach, in the textbooks that an embryo is nothing but a similar form to other species. That leads a person to believe that the embryo is not worth a life. They led the way to the Pro-Choice movement, who grabbed Haegel's "theory" that embryos of pregnant women are less than human because they resemble that of other species. BTW. He faked the diagrams of the embryonic stages of humans, when he compared it to other species. His own colleagues took him to court and he was found guilty. I'll give you more details if you are interested.

I believe, as do others, that both science and Orthodox Christianity offer us aspects of the "truth," and are not mutually contradictory, when properly understood.

Orthodoxy is the full truth...there is no "aspect" about it. If you think that way, then you are not Orthodox.

Are you a person that wants to live by "aspects" or do you want the full-blooded truth? If Orthodoxy is an aspect, as is science, then WHAT do you considered to be the FULL truth??

Would you accept to live by the "aspect" of being paid a certain amount for your work, or would you want the solid facts and truth about the amount that will appear on your check?

Don't settle for less than the full truth.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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ANGELA
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Post by ANGELA »

Gooday!

Something to ponder on:

I don't know if anyone knows this but before Darwin died, he actually said that God created us and we did not evolve from apes!
:D

Also, the Orthodox Big Bang Theory: God spoke and bang it happened!!!

In Christ
Angela+++

Pravoslavnik
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Darwin's God

Post by Pravoslavnik »

"I don't know if anyone knows this but before Darwin died, he actually said that God created us..."

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 Darwin always believed in God, and in creation by God through evolutionary biological processes.  He never saw a fundamental conflict between science and religion.  The pseudo-conflict between Christianity and science is a creation of the Rennaissance Papacy, of modern Protestant Fundamentalists like Henry Morris, and of some atheistic scientists, like Stephen Jay Gould.

  A question for Joanna.  Do I have to actually observe the Colorado River carving out the sedimentary layers of the Grand Canyon over a period of millions of years in order to assert that the Canyon was, in fact, carved by the Colorado River?  Do I have to actually have observed the activities and deaths of Wolly Mammoths in Colorado during the last Ice Age in order to assert that the Wolly Mammoths did, in fact, once live in Colorado?  Can I not rely on geological and fossil evidence as facts about paleology?  Also, you assert that Charles Darwin did not base his theory of evolution on observation of empirical evidence.  Can you tell us if you have read [i]The Origin of Species[/i] or [i]The Voyage of the Beagle[/i]?

      Joanna has further stated that Orthodoxy does not give us an "aspect" of the truth, but the whole truth.  Can she tell us what Orthodoxy tells us about mitosis, mitochondrial DNA, and the chemical composition of the atmosphere of the planet Venus?  Which of the scriptures or writings of the Holy Fathers discuss those scientific truths?  I must not have read those.  Does our mitochondrial DNA come from our fathers or mothers?
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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

as for the canyon and CO river question -- how do you know God didnt create the canyon with the river running through it?

the tactic of claiming that creationists posit a contradiction btwn Scripture and science is completely false. true science adn true faith always complement each other. the question is whether or not evolution is true science -- ppl that use this tactic against Creationists are assuming evolution to be true -- but since i dont see it as science then me not believing in it doesnt mean i think faith and science contradict.

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stumbler
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Post by stumbler »

So, when the state of science is such that it appears that objects are older than 7 or 8 thousand years by everything we currently understand scientifically, science is just wrong?

If this is so, then science would never advance, and as such has no chance of ever conforming to religious views, as they are currently held.

I too would like to know in the Bible where God reveals to us matters of geology.

This isn't a fair debate where one side (science) has as a premise the need to explain information which does not seem to conform to previous understanding, and the other side (religion) claims that anything which does not conform to its understanding must simply be wrong.

Perhaps the discussion could advance if both sides could be equally humble and admit, as does science, that we don't understand everything in the world, whether we see it ourselves (evidence, data) or it is revealed through spiritual texts.

Arrogance is not a proper Orthodox attitude in my opinion. The whole "follow me or you will go to hell" thing is very protestant. The Orthodox startsi will all say that God is free to save whomever he wishes, whether that person believes the earth is 15 billion years old, 6 days old, whether he/she believes in Krishna or Buddha or worships the tree in front of his/her house. We are not God, and we don't understand everything or how everything works. We certainly are intelligent enough to look for patterns and form theories and explore them.

I will repeat: God calls us to try to be wise and to learn, not to be ignorant of what surrounds us.

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