Evolution and an Orthodox Patristic understanding of Genesis

[Pravoslavnik]

Dear Joanna & Friends in Christ,

Code: Select all

    I have taken the time to carefully answer your questions about the scientific measurement of the age of the earth, evolutionary theory, new earth creationism, etc.  Would you be so kind as to answer a few of my questions?  I would like to clarify the level of fundamental disagreement in the current debate about whether one can be an Orthodox Christian and also accept the Darwinian theory of evolution as an elegant, scientific explanation for the data of paleontology.

1) If you do not accept some notion of "uniformitarianism," in the nature of the physical universe, do you also believe that there are no natural, scientific laws that explain the physical and chemical properties of matter? For example, do you not accept the Newtonian laws of gravitation and thermodynamics? Einstein's theory of relativity?

2) How old do you believe the earth is, and why do you believe this to be the correct age of earth?

3) When, in the course of the earth's history, do you believe that the dinosaurs lived? (e.g., the T. Rex, Brontosaurus, Stegosaurus, etc?)

4) When, in the course of the earth's history, do you believe that our species, homo sapiens, first appeared?

5) Which two non-human species on earth have 98% of our human DNA in their nuclei?

6) Who were the "daughters of men" that the two sons of Adam--Cain and Seth--married, according to Genesis?

Many thanks for your consideration,

Pravoslavnik

[joasia]

I have posted plenty to show that your stance is wrong. Evolution has no place in Christian doctrine.

True science reveals God's works. Evolutionist science is based on speculation and imagination. This belief tries to remove God as the source of life. This becomes a religion...not science.

This mentality leads to notions of pro-choice, because they say that an embryo isn't human. Imagine...two humans who produce a non-human.

Believe what you want. But, don't think that evolution is a Christian belief.

[Pravoslavnik]

"True science reveals God's works. Evolutionist science is based on speculation and imagination"

Code: Select all

   Dear Joanna,

    You have not answered any of my listed questions below, and I have asked them for heuristic reasons.  There are serious problems with the Protestant Fundamentalist views of Genesis that you espouse, and I am trying to illustrate the nature of these problems.

   True science does, indeed, reveal God's works.  Evolutionary theory presents a rather elegant scientific explanation/mechanism for the scientific data of the biosphere, and glorifies God in the process.  How do we know that God--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--did not create the world, in part, through these evolutionary processes in 15 billion years, measured in earth-time, or six 24 hour days when measured from the origin of the Big Bang?  This scientific concept of "creation" is consistent with the mystical writings of Scripture, and of the Holy Fathers, when properly understood.  One can accept scientific truths and the truths of Orthodox mystical theology.  But a scientist cannot accept "new earth creationism," and "intelligent design" theories as true when they simply fail to explain the data.

[joasia]

Pravoslavnik,

We've gone through a lengthy arguement. I was waiting for someone else to answer the questions since we have touched on the main points that I mentioned and we still don't agree.

The first point is the age of earth. The Holy Bible states that God created the earth in 6 days. The holy fathers express that believe. The evolutionists want to remove the active presence of an omnipotent God and imagine a God that started the ball rolling and then let things go at it's own pace. They want us to believe that we evolved from a rock, when there was no oxygen and then the rocks absorbed the oxygen and developed into the complex human forms we are today. This is fantasy. I will NEVER believe in this.

The Holy Bible states that God said: Let us make man in our image and after Our likeness(Genesis 1:26). But, then He created a primordial soup that turned into rock?? This is a fundamental lie and you say that they support the Holy Bible? This is blasphemy.

How do we know that God--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--did not create the world, in part, through these evolutionary processes in 15 billion years, measured in earth-time, or six 24 hour days when measured from the origin of the Big Bang?

Because the Evolutionists made it up. Don't you see where they lead you? They say that the embryo isn't human....that's why it's ok to kill it before it's born. God doesn't need to create man over billions of years. He's God. He did it in an instant of His Will.

They have no proof. Even the scientists have admitted that the evolution theory(not law - which is what they want us to believe), is false.

But a scientist cannot accept "new earth creationism," and "intelligent design" theories as true when they simply fail to explain the data.

Intelligent design is not a theory, it's GOD. What are you babbling about?? There are common elements between us and animals because we have a common Creator.

Don't we recognize a painting by who painted it because we understand the technique that particular painter used? They use the same technique in all their paintings. They have their style of painting and it is recognized. God is the designer of life and He created the basic laws of nature and the substance of life.

You are getting nowhere in trying to explain things. Why don't you list the points that you think Science Creationists are wrong about and then I will refute them.

Doesn't look like anybody else is interested in this thread, so basically it's between me and you.

I will answer your questions quickly, but you need to specify what you want to say, in point form.

1) I believe and observe the natural laws.

2) The earth is 6,000 years old or so. Because the Old Testament prophets wrote about it.

3) They lived with man. They were referred to as dragons, in the Old Testament.

4) God created man, Adam and Eve.

5) I know only about the chimps. We have the same Creator.

6) You really should add quotes. I will answer this one when you have given me the passage. I really think you are being purposefully disrespectful when you don't add quotes, when I have pointed that out to you already.

And I have been plenty patient with you. You have yet to prove anything.

[Pravoslavnik]

Dear Joanna,

Code: Select all

     Let me get this straight.  You have been kind enough to briefly answer five of my six questions.  From your responses, I understand that you do, in fact, believe in natural scientific laws which describe the physical and chemical properties of matter.  At the same time, you also believe that the earth is a mere 6,000 years old, and that the great dinosaurs of earth's Jurassic era--such as the Tyranosaurus Rex and the Bronstosaurae-- lived contemporaneously with humans (homo sapiens.)  You correctly identified the chimpanzee as the species that shares 98% of our human DNA.

   Are you familiar with physical and chemical methods for determining the age of the earth, such as the sampling of radio nuclides and ratios of elements like rubidium/strontium, and uranium/lead?  Do you believe that scientific laws pertain to this type of data?  Are you familiar with paleontological data about dinosaurs?  For example, have you ever visited a site where fossils of dinosaurs have been excavated?  Have any fossilized remains of homo sapiens been found in these "digs"?  Conversely, have the remains of dinosaurs ever been found in archaeological excavations of human communities?  Are you familiar with methods of dating the skeletal remains of ancient humans, and the diverse findings of anthropologists concerning the history of our species?

        An  excellent, readable reference on this subject is UCLA Professor Jared Diamond's [i]The Third Chimpanzee.[/i]  An excellent, scholarly reference on paleontology and the various inadequate  alternatives to Darwinian evolutionary theory, as I mentioned earlier, is Brown University Professor Kenneth Miller's book [i]Finding Darwin's God. [/i]  Any Orthodox Christian pontificating on the subject of paleontology and evolution should, at a minimum, carefully study the scientific data in these books, one of which is written by a serious Christian.

       You did not answer my sixth question.  Who were the women that the sons of Adam--Cain and Seth--married, according to Genesis 4:17 and 4:26?  Also, you have made several supercilious remarks about evolutionary theory claiming that "man came from a rock."  What do you make of the scripture which says that "the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground"? ([i]Genesis [/i]2:7)  How is this any different from man "coming from a rock"?  Doesn't the ancient text of [i]Genesis [/i]say, rather precisely, that man (the "adamah") did come from a rock (the earth)?  The text doesn't say precisely how God accomplished this incredible feat on the respective "day" of creation in which it was accomplished.  I certainly respect your Orthodox faith, but I also believe that you should ponder these issues more carefully before you continue to instruct the faithful in matters of science.

[joasia]

Pravoslavnik,

For one...I got the impression that you were baptised, because you mentioned the struggles of being a convert; it was on another post, just recently, to ChristosVoskrese. Since you are obviously looking for arguements and do not understand anything that I explain, I assume that you don't care to know the truth.

I can answer your questions, but I really feel like you are prodding me with a stick and it is getting tiresome. You are becoming a bore. I've lost all interest in continuing your ridiculous arguement. Even TomS hasn't posted a cheeky remark. This MUST be a really BORING thread. No stamp of approval by Tom.

The Holy Bible and the holy fathers there in, do not believe in the evolution idea.

Point finale...end of point. Move on.

If somebody else wants to pick up the ball, go ahead.

[Pravoslavnik]

"Since you are obviously looking for arguements and do not understand anything that I explain, I assume that you don't care to know the truth." ????

Dear Joanna;

Code: Select all

    This entire thread, and several of your recent posts, are based on the thesis--included in the poll-- that one cannot be a true Orthodox Christian and also accept the scientific validity of the Darwinian theory of evolution based on natural selection.  I have simply tried to clarify why your position on this issue makes no sense.  I have also offered an alternative, scientifically-based interpretation of the text of [i]Genesis[/i] (from Gerald Schroeder) which draws upon the theory of relativity with respect to the passage of time in the cosmos.  If you are bored by this subject, why are you posting your opinions so dogmatically?