Evolution and an Orthodox Patristic understanding of Genesis

[joasia]

Tom,

What are you, the Cafe attack dog?

So you feel attacked? That's a first.

Sounds like you're conflicted. Not here nor there. Get a grip. Find your place and then everything will be clear.

BTW. You contridict your own statements. So, let's not dwell.

And also, why do you keep arguing here when there are so many other websites with people that believe like you? I don't go to atheist groups and argue there because it's of no interest for me. I'd rather grow stronger in my faith than try to convince others that they are wrong....unless they are doing it here.

I think it's because you are so desperately looking for God, but still keep resisting. One day, He will reveal Himself to you...when His time comes. And you will be the Saul that converted to Paul. But, your name suits you well...doubting Thomas.

In Christ, Joanna

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

For anybody that is interested in an intellectual explanation of creation,that supports the Bible. He's a Baptist, but boy, he is so close to the truth of Orthodoxy. I hope he makes it.

This is better than watching movies.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ent+hovind

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ent+hovind

In Christ, Joanna

[Pravoslavnik]

I noticed today that this thread on evolutionary theory and Fundamentalist concepts of creationism goes back to 2003 with an initial reference to a lecture by Hieromonk Ambrose Young on the subject. I must confess that I did not read all 106 (!)of the often lengthy posts on this thread, but I want to mention a few scientific references that are extremely relevant to this issue.
I am quite familiar with the writings of St. Basil the Great, St. Ambrose of Milan, as well as those of Father Ambrose Young and (posthumously published) writings of blessed Father Seraphim Rose on the subject of evolution and creationism. I hold both of these Orthodox hieromonks in the highest esteem, but also believe that their creationist views are fundamentally flawed.
Can the Holy Fathers of the Church, even Basil the Great and St. Ambrose of Milan, be wrong about a scientific issue like the Hexameron and evolution? Are they not infallible? Can we be truly Orthodox and still believe that Darwinian theory is the best, most exact explanation of the scientific data of paleontology? I must agree with a fellow Orthodox physician, Alexander Kalomiros, that we can, and that there are a number of very precise, fascinating ways in which the discoveries of modern astrophysics and biology can be reconciled with a mystical interpretation of the Hebrew text of Genesis. It saddens me that so many Orthodox Christians are not aware of this data and theory, despite my own personal efforts to bring it to the attention of people like Hieromonk Ambrose during the past decade. St. Augustine of Hippo cautioned the Church long ago that priests and other leaders of the Church should not make inaccurate pronouncements about scientific matters that they do not understand very well, in order to avoid scandalizing the Church and the faith.
The single best book that has been written about the comparative scientific merits of Darwinian theory and alternative theories of paleontology is Brown University Professor Kenneth Miller's book, Finding Darwin's God. The analysis of Henry Morris's New Earth creationist theory in this book should be carefully studied by all Orthodox Christians writing and/or teaching about the subject. It is a singular misfortune of Orthodox history that Father Seraphim Rose and Father Alexey Young latched on to the Henry Morris theory and pseudo-data in the 1980's.
The second book that should be carefully studied is The Science of God by the Orthodox Talmudic scholar and MIT physicist Gerald Schroeder. I am, frankly, surprised that Schroeder's integration of Genesis and the theory of relativity has not been more widely studied by everyone interested in traditional Christianity, including serious Orthodox Christians. Among other things, Schroeder demonstrates very clearly how the 15 billion years of earth's history--measured from the perspective of the earth--have actually passed in about six 24 hour days, when time is measured from the theoretical point at which the Big Bang occurred. The events described in Genesis fit rather precisely with Schroeder's astronomical clock, expecially when they are understood and interpreted in the original Hebrew.

[joasia]

Pravoslavnik,

I ask because I want to understand...

I am quite familiar with the writings of St. Basil the Great, St. Ambrose of Milan, as well as those of Father Ambrose Young and (posthumously published) writings of blessed Father Seraphim Rose on the subject of evolution and creationism. I hold both of these Orthodox hieromonks in the highest esteem, but also believe that their creationist views are fundamentally flawed.

How so?

Can the Holy Fathers of the Church, even Basil the Great and St. Ambrose of Milan, be wrong about a scientific issue like the Hexameron and evolution?

Since the holy fathers are inspired by the Holy Spirit, how can they be wrong? What did they say that was wrong? What is Hexameron?

I must agree with a fellow Orthodox physician, Alexander Kalomiros, that we can, and that there are a number of very precise, fascinating ways in which the discoveries of modern astrophysics and biology can be reconciled with a mystical interpretation of the Hebrew text of Genesis.

What is the disctinction of the mystical interpretation? Did you look at the links I posted previously? It's a Baptist that explains the science but proves how the Bible is accurate in the explanation of the history. What part of the Orthodox saints' explanations fall short of explaining the science?

It is a singular misfortune of Orthodox history that Father Seraphim Rose and Father Alexey Young latched on to the Henry Morris theory and pseudo-data in the 1980's.

Can you give some examples that Fr. Seraphim and Fr. Alexey supported from this book that is not according to Orthodox teachings?

Among other things, Schroeder demonstrates very clearly how the 15 billion years of earth's history--measured from the perspective of the earth--have actually passed in about six 24 hour days, when time is measured from the theoretical point at which the Big Bang occurred. The events described in Genesis fit rather precisely with Schroeder's astronomical clock, expecially when they are understood and interpreted in the original Hebrew.

That sounds very fascinating. I'll definitely try to get this book. I've had a difficult time trying to find Fr. Seraphim's book, Genesis, Creation and the Early Man. It's not available in most places...even Amazon.

If you have other sources, please post them. Thanks

In Christ, Joanna

[Cyprian]

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. (2 Peter 2:1-2)

Dearly beloved,

The so-called theory of evolution is a damnable heresy. It is incompatible with the Orthodox understanding of Creation, and of course it is incompatible with sacred Scripture. One cannot subscribe to the theory of evolution and be an Orthodox Christian, period.

Alexander Kalomiros was one of these false teachers, and his writings should not be relied upon.

Gerald Schroeder is a Christ-denying Jew who studies the most vile and diabolical writings upon the face of the earth -- the Babylonian Talmud. No one should waste their time reading his poisonous writings either.

Anyone who presumes to think they know more than the holy Fathers is vain, proud, and is self-condemned. None of the holy Fathers ever taught Evolutionist nonsense.

The theory of evolution is not a recent invention, but is an ancient heresy that dates back thousands of years.

For example, the phliosopher Anaximander in the 6th century B.C. supposed that man was generated from animals.

Cyprian

[Pravoslavnik]

"The so-called theory of evolution is a damnable heresy. It is incompatible with the Orthodox understanding of Creation, and of course it is incompatible with sacred Scripture. One cannot subscribe to the theory of evolution and be an Orthodox Christian, period."

Code: Select all

        This post by Cyprian contains a number of semantic and empirical inaccuracies, which I would like to illustrate in a stepwise fashion.

1) "The so-called theory of evolution..."

Code: Select all

      The Darwinian theory of evolution is very clearly a bona fide, scientific "theory."  It is a theoretical explanation of a vast corpus of scientific data from paleontology and modern biology.  It is not merely a "so-called" theory, but is a major, elegant scientific theory.  Even if it is proven to be incorrect, in some particulars, it remains an elegant theory with tremendous explanatory and heuristic value in science.  What is more, the alternative "theories" that have been proposed in recent years by a number of Protestant Fundamentalists, including Henry Morris, fail miserably as scientific theories; they simply do not explain the data, and are, in fact, disproven by the data.  The best analysis of how the various "creationist" theories fail to explain the biological data is presented by Brown University Professor of Biology, Kenneth Miller, in his book [i]Finding Darwin's God.[/i]  Any Orthodox clergyman writing and teaching about this subject needs, at a minimum, to carefully study Miller's text.

2) "is a damnable heresy..."

Really? What is the name of this damnable heresy? Which Ecumenical Council of the Holy Church defined this heresy?

3) "... it is incompatible with the Orthodox understanding of creation..."

Which "Orthodox" understanding of creation is Cyprian referring to? That of St. Augustine, or those of St. Ambrose or St. Basil the Great? That of Alexander Kalomiros, or that of Henry Morris and Father Seraphim Rose? St. Augustine expressed some rather pointed concerns about the popular Hexamera of St. Basil and St. Ambrose in his day. Augustine's comments on this subject are worth studying. One of his chief concerns is that he did not want Orthodox authors to make definitive inaccurate statements about scientific matters which might later undermine the Church. (Somewhat like the Roman Catholic Church condemning Galileo for his astonomical observations and conclusion that the sun did not rotate around the earth.) One of St. Augustine's most prescient comments about cosmology--written over 1,500 years before Einstein published his theory of relativity--is that we cannot presume to understand what the author of Genesis meant by the word "day"...We now know that time passes at different rates in the universe, partly as a function of the acceleration of matter. Did St. Basil know, in the fourth century A.D., that the earth was 15 billion years old, in "earth time," but only six 24 hour days old when measured from the theoretical point where the Big Bang had occurred?

4) "...and, of course, it is incompatible with scripture..."

Code: Select all

    Oh, really?  Where does it say in Genesis that God did not create the complex life of our biosphere though a rather ingenius process of evolution?    What is truly astounding to me is how accurately the intricate evolution of life on earth is described in Genesis when one applies the 15 billion earth-year/ six day "God-year" cosmological clock of Gerald Schroeder, based upon Einstien's theory of relativity.  For example, the Hebrew text of Genesis talks about the "day" that God created the "giant lizzards" (i.e. dinosaurs), corresponding exactly to the Jurrasic era of earth history when dinosaurs "ruled the earth."
    The Hebrew text of Genesis also talks about God's creation of the "adamah," or man from the earth, and the seprate special creation (using a different verb for creation) of the Adamah into whom God breathed His spirit.  Genesis also says that the sons of Adam--Cain and Seth--married "the daughters of men."  Who were these men (homo sapiens) and their daughters?

5) "One cannot subscribe to the theory of evolution and be an Orthodox Christian, period."

Code: Select all

     Science and Orthodox revelation are two ways of knowing the truth, and truth is an intercalated whole.  Many scientists and Fundamentalist Protestants insist that science and Christianity are in conflict, and that we must chose either science or Christianity.  I believe that science and true Christianity (Orthodoxy) both represent aspects of truth, and are reconcilable, once we understand them in all of their profound depth.  Evolutionary theory does not contradict the doctrines or teachings of the Orthodox faith, and I do not understand where this Protestant Fundamentalist notion is coming from, such as labelling evolutionary theory an Orthodox heresy.  It is a serious charge to level against another Orthodox Christian, and should be carefully supported by the canons and Creed of the Church.

  One final comment, concerning the scriptures.  Obviously, the Old Testament canon was written in Hebrew.  If we consider this scripture to be sacred--and, of course, we do--why would we denounce one who studies and comments upon the text in the language in which it was written, such as Gerald Schroeder?  It is true that Rabbinical Jews in the Christian era cannot clearly see Christ--what the Apostle Paul called the "mystical blindness of Israel until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled"--but that does not imply that they are unable to understand and expound upon the mysteries of the Torah.  Furthermore, who is Cyprian, or any among us, to insist that our brother in Christ, Dr. Alexander Kalomiros, is not an Orthodox Christian?  I've never heard that one before.  It sounds more Papal or Protestant than Orthodox.

[joasia]

I would like to point out of few things myself.

The Darwinian theory of evolution is very clearly a bona fide, scientific "theory."

Even scientists have admitted that the Darwinian theory is more like speculation. For one, there's no proof that man came from a rock. Imagine, a rock!

but is a major, elegant scientific theory.

Scientific theory? More like science fiction. Evolutionists also support the idea of aliens on another planet.

The best analysis of how the various "creationist" theories fail to explain the biological data is presented by Brown University Professor of Biology, Kenneth Miller, in his book Finding Darwin's God. Any Orthodox clergyman writing and teaching about this subject needs, at a minimum, to carefully study Miller's text.

Can you give an example? I'd really like to hear this.

Really? What is the name of this damnable heresy? Which Ecumenical Council of the Holy Church defined this heresy?

It's called evolution. And we don't need to have an Ecumenical Council to propose the damning officially. Ecumenism, Communism, Buddhism, Islam are damnable because they oppose Christ...but there was no E.C. for these. But, don't we still know that they are false? Plus, there is the teaching in the New Testament. The Apostle stated in 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 45: The first man Adam was made a living soul. Are you contradicting the New Testament? He didn't say that the first homo sapien developed from a process of billions of years. He was referring to a person that was created and his wife.

Besides, he quoted the New Testament, at the beginning, which says that false teachings(heresies) are damnable.

Why are you arguing against this? Seems like you don't even believe in the Holy Bible.

To contradict creationism is to contradict the Holy Bible and to contradict what the Apostles taught which were taught to them by Christ. Therefore, it is to contradict Christ who is our Lord and Saviour AND God. Therefore, it is to contradict GOD.

And we all know that to contradict and oppose GOD is to bring damnation unto ourselves because we refuse to be with GOD. Basically, we darn ourselves. But, all we have to do is turn back to GOD.

Which "Orthodox" understanding of creation is Cyprian referring to? That of St. Augustine, or those of St. Ambrose or St. Basil the Great?

I think you are confused here. Or am I? Sounds like Cyprian is saying that the evolution theory does not compare to the saints' teachings of creation. And creation is the Orthodox teaching.

One of St. Augustine's most prescient comments about cosmology--written over 1,500 years before Einstein published his theory of relativity--is that we cannot presume to understand what the author of Genesis meant by the word "day"...We now know that time passes at different rates in the universe, partly as a function of the acceleration of matter. Did St. Basil know, in the fourth century A.D., that the earth was 15 billion years old, in "earth time," but only six 24 hour days old when measured from the theoretical point where the Big Bang had occurred?

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Augustine stated that God created the earth and Adam and Eve in a time that is expressed as "days" but was really billions of years, then he was wrong. And BTW. Augustine is not numbered as a saint; he had erroneous teachings. He is more favored by the West than the East. And why is it so difficult to believe that God created the earth and universe in 6 days?

Afterall, aren't we Orthodox suppose to believe in Him as the Almighty, Omnipotent, Uncreated Being? Sounds like you have let some seeds of the evil one's lies enter your heart. When we doubt for a split second, it gives entrance for the liar and seperates us from God.

Oh, really? Where does it say in Genesis that God did not create the complex life of our biosphere though a rather ingenius process of evolution?

Why should He? Ingenius is a limited adjective use to describe men that perform beyond the expected norm of society. Don't you realize that you are reducing God's supra-natural essence? You are expressing a limit on the Unlimited. God set order in the world and created Adam and Eve. Even the saints taught that Christ is the second Adam and the Theotokos is the second Eve. Even Christ said that He saw the stars fall, meaning the angels, when they fell to their damnation. Anything that is taught against God and His Holy Words are a damnation....there you go...I revealed the source of damnation.

What is truly astounding to me is how accurately the intricate evolution of life on earth is described in Genesis when one applies the 15 billion earth-year/ six day "God-year" cosmological clock of Gerald Schroeder, based upon Einstien's theory of relativity. For example, the Hebrew text of Genesis talks about the "day" that God created the "giant lizzards" (i.e. dinosaurs), corresponding exactly to the Jurrasic era of earth history when dinosaurs "ruled the earth."

These eras are a fabrication of evolutionists. The geographic columns is a false teaching. Petrified trees have been found standing up through many layers of these "pre-historic" striations. This proves that there was a quick change that occurred. Petrification happens in water; perhaps a flood. And that didn't happen billions of years ago. Those layers happened quickly. How do scientists date fossils....by which level they found them in the columns. How do they date the columns...by which fossils they found in them. Does that make any sense? This is called circular reasoning. Did you know that carbon dating is a haux? There were tests done on live animals and the tests dated them to be billions of years old. Live animals!

Did you know that dinosaurs and mankind lived at the same time? What about the reference to Leviathan in the Old Testament. Or the fact that there are caves with drawings of great lizzard beasts being killed by men. These are found all over the world. They never lived before man. They were just reduced because man killed them off. There are places in the Congo that still talk about these great beasts.

The Hebrew text of Genesis also talks about God's creation of the "adamah," or man from the earth, and the seprate special creation (using a different verb for creation) of the Adamah into whom God breathed His spirit.

Are you an expert in Hebrew? I really think that the seed planted in you is effecting your faith. Isn't it possible that the first term refers to creating the physical Adam and the second to his soul? Afterall, God can create EVERYTHING from nothing, but His special gift to us was creating our souls.

Of course, if you believe in evolution, then where does the soul fit in? Or do you not believe we have souls? How does a soul develop. Even with your "theory" of God and evolution...in what point and time, would God have created mankind's soul? Evolutionists never talk about a soul. Scientific evolutionists are atheists. Maybe people who don't know what is being fed to them can think that these can exist hand in hand, but that's because they don't understand anything.

Genesis also says that the sons of Adam--Cain and Seth--married "the daughters of men." Who were these men (homo sapiens) and their daughters?

First let me request that you add the chapter and verse with your quotes. Thank you.

You assume that they married in their 20's perhaps? The fallibility of evolution is that people tend to think in terms of the society we live in. Did you also not read how old Adam was when he died? Or how old Seth was? There was plenty of time to have hundreds of children. (Insert: But, it pains my body to think about how Eve had hundreds of babies). Adam and Eve were of a superior physical structure. They were living in the Holy Spirit and how does a person look like when he lives in the Holy Spirit...he glows. I'm sure you've heard of saints who were described as glowing even in repose. But, when they fell into sin...they ended up with descendants of such weak composition as ourselves. Talk about the weakest link! And if evolution is so great, then why does nature show us that we are de-evolving from a physical state of longevity, size(there were plenty of giants in the Old Testament) and health?

Science and Orthodox revelation are two ways of knowing the truth, and truth is an intercalated whole.

Science can prove Orthodox revelation because God is order not chaos. God created the rules of nature and we can learn about them through science. But, the science you defend does not care for Orthodox revelation. At least admit that. Science theories are always discovering new things. There was a time when science proclaimed that the world was flat and that if a ship sailed to the horizon it would fall off the earth. Science taught that the atom was the smallest molecule and then a scientist split it and discovered an even smaller form. Science always reveals new truths of the nature of our planet. Glory be to God and His amazing creation.

And you're going to tell me that man developed from a rock? The textbooks explain that there was nothing and then there was the big bang. They explain that there was no oxygen, at the beginning and then the rocks absorbed the oxygen and developed into a primordial soup. How can movement occur from nothing? How can oxygen be absorbed when it didn't exist? If you say God, then you'll have to admit that God can do much better than that. And if you believe He can, then why don't you believe in creation?

Many scientists and Fundamentalist Protestants insist that science and Christianity are in conflict, and that we must chose either science or Christianity. I believe that science and true Christianity (Orthodoxy) both represent aspects of truth, and are reconcilable, once we understand them in all of their profound depth.

Up to this point, I don't think you understand anything. That seed is growing.

Evolutionary theory does not contradict the doctrines or teachings of the Orthodox faith,

Yes. It does.

and I do not understand where this Protestant Fundamentalist notion is coming from, such as labelling evolutionary theory an Orthodox heresy.

Where did he say that? He says evolution is against the Orthodox teachings, not an "Orthodox heresy".

You're trying to twist the words.

The Orthodox saints taught against evolution. You mentioned St. Basil. Well, here is what he says about evolution: Avoid the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog; who say that they have been formerly themselves women, shrubs, fish. Have they ever been fish? I do not know; but I do not fear to affirm that in their writings they show less sense than fish.’ (Homily VIII:2)

These Protestants are alot more faithful than you think. Their spiritual teachings are off, but they've got it on the nose when it comes to creationism.

It is a serious charge to level against another Orthodox Christian, and should be carefully supported by the canons and Creed of the Church.

But, you level charges against Christ! Against the Apostles. Against the saints. Don't let yourself be sucked into the world concept. If you believe in Orthodoxy, then think about what I said. But, if you want to persist, then we will have a lovely debate. And you will lose.

One final comment, concerning the scriptures. Obviously, the Old Testament canon was written in Hebrew. If we consider this scripture to be sacred--and, of course, we do--why would we denounce one who studies and comments upon the text in the language in which it was written, such as Gerald Schroeder? It is true that Rabbinical Jews in the Christian era cannot clearly see Christ--what the Apostle Paul called the "mystical blindness of Israel until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled"--but that does not imply that they are unable to understand and expound upon the mysteries of the Torah.

Are you seriously stating that you will trust his interpretation over that of the Holy Bible? Did you read all the Orthodox saints about the subject that you need more? Or are you just an infiltrator?

You said it yourself..."It is true that Rabbinical Jews in the Christian era cannot clearly see Christ...". Then how, in the name of God, can they teach the truth??

YOU just blasted and accused Cyprian for stating things that YOU think are against another Orthodox, yourself I presume, and yet you DARE to convince us to support teachings from a man that defies God's truth??!

I'll let you in on a little fact...these Jews DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST. And therefore, they do not want to interpret the Holy Scriptures in truth.

Think about it. They can't even interpret the prophets properly and realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. How, in God's name, can you trust them to interpret anything else? Does this make sense to you? Do you even know about the history of the Jews in the passed 2000 years after they CRUCIFIED CHRIST?

Furthermore, who is Cyprian, or any among us, to insist that our brother in Christ, Dr. Alexander Kalomiros, is not an Orthodox Christian? I've never heard that one before. It sounds more Papal or Protestant than Orthodox

That I can't answer. But, I hope Cyprian can give us some knowledge about this. I'd like to know before I buy any books.

These are sober scientific explanations of creation. Very significant information.

http://drdino.com/downloads.php

In Christ, Joanna