Joint MP-ROCOR meeting calls English Liturgy "Protestan

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Spyridon wrote:

Why cant we americans with all the resources and modern gadgets at our disposal learn this dieing and faithful language used for nothing more, than worship Of the Tri-Une GOD- so many beautiful and contrite words that could never be translated into the english language...

It was thought that the pagan Russians could never express the beauty of Orthodoxy as the Greeks did. Get over it. It's a language. I know 4. It's a means of communication and beauty can be expressed in all languages.

The Greeks say: Christos Anesti. The Russians say Christos Voskrese. The English version is Christ is Risen! The meaning is there. As you see, the English version doesn't degrade what is being said and taught. CHRIST IS RISEN!

As much as I really appreciate the fact that I learnt the Holy Liturgy in Greek and Russian...I have become much more set in the idea that it should be chanted in English. It is SO imperative that we understand what is being taught in church...especially in these last days. Look at the young generations. They are falling away because they don't understand the spiritual beauty of what is taught. The Apostles taught in the language of the people.

I've always loved hearing the Holy Liturgy in Greek and when I heard it in Russian(with a choir), it took some time to get used to it. The Russians needed to hear it in their language. So what's the problem with hearing it in our language?

Spiridon, the Greeks served Liturgy in their language WAY before the Russians. It's not a matter of being selfish Americans...that's for issues like women wanting to wear pants to church and not respecting the dress code because she's a feminist. Some order should be applied in these situations. But, the language issue is quite clear. Holy Liturgy should be heard in the language of the majority of that parish. Why should a church of converts hear it in Russian? I understand the main parts of the Liturgy in Russian, but not the specific parts that refer to a feast day or the Tones. I don't have all the books to read about it in English.

And when we stand in church, we should pray with our whole hearts together. That is a great spiritual strength. But, how in God's name can we focus on the sacred prayers being said when we don't know what is being said? I don't know about others here, but I get moved by words that I understand, whether good or bad. And Holy Liturgy is all good.

Wouldn't it be easier to help non-Orthodox to come to church if they understood what was said? Alot of people are inspired by the beauty of the service, like it's some kind of art form that is so beautiful. They lose out on understanding the worship.

They see bishops and priest and deacons all dressed in fine colorful robes and they see the magnificent icons and smell the sweet incense, but that's all. If they understood what was being chanted, then they would get the meaning of what the Orthodox faith is...they would hear God's words.

So how are we, the English-speaking Orthodox biggots? I think it's the Russians and Greeks that are biggots because they don't want to SHARE God's word. And frankly, even the yayas and babuskas, don't know WHAT is being chanted...for all we know the choir could be chanting ecumenist philosophy, with a few changes to the wording.

So that's another crucial point to think about. If we hear the Holy Liturgy in English then we are able to pick off indiscretions in the Service. What if the Nicean Creed is chanted in English and the choir says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? We would never know, because we wouldn't catch a little change like that. But, if it was in English, then it would be clear that heresy is being spoken in the Orthodox Church.

But, we are expected to just listen to the Russian or Greek chants and we don't know what they are saying. I suspect that even the chanters don't know what is being said because this is from the old language.

BTW. I pray in English. Does that make me a biggot? It's not about us wanting an easier life...we want to hear the Liturgy in English because we want to worship in a language that we talk to God in our prayers? If the Theotokos came to visit me, she would be talking to me in ENGLISH. If she spoke in Russian, I wouldn't understand her. There are many miracles of the Theotokos when she appeared to a saint and she always spoke in their language.

We are used to the Greek and Russian chants and they are so beautiful. Now we have to make them beautiful in English.

Check out ancientfaithradio.com Their chants in English really inspire a person because it's in a language we understand. They chant it with the same tone and I recognized the ones they were chanting which I only heard in Russian. I finally understood. Chanting is a form of glorifying God, but it also teaches truths. The chants of the saint of that day teaches something about the saint.

Anyways, I can go on and on, but I think I've said enough. If a person loves to hear the Liturgy in Russian..great, but let's not be insensitive to those who want to hear it in English...that's just plain insulting to a person's free will. The books are translated into English, why not the services?

In Christ, Joanna

[catechuman]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Spyridon wrote:

Why cant we americans with all the resources and modern gadgets at our disposal learn this dieing and faithful language used for nothing more, than worship Of the Tri-Une GOD- so many beautiful and contrite words that could never be translated into the english language...

It was thought that the pagan Russians could never express the beauty of Orthodoxy as the Greeks did. Get over it. It's a language. I know 4. It's a means of communication and beauty can be expressed in all languages.

The Greeks say: Christos Anesti. The Russians say Christos Voskrese. The English version is Christ is Risen! The meaning is there. As you see, the English version doesn't degrade what is being said and taught. CHRIST IS RISEN!

As much as I really appreciate the fact that I learnt the Holy Liturgy in Greek and Russian...I have become much more set in the idea that it should be chanted in English. It is SO imperative that we understand what is being taught in church...especially in these last days. Look at the young generations. They are falling away because they don't understand the spiritual beauty of what is taught. The Apostles taught in the language of the people.

I've always loved hearing the Holy Liturgy in Greek and when I heard it in Russian(with a choir), it took some time to get used to it. The Russians needed to hear it in their language. So what's the problem with hearing it in our language?

Spiridon, the Greeks served Liturgy in their language WAY before the Russians. It's not a matter of being selfish Americans...that's for issues like women wanting to wear pants to church and not respecting the dress code because she's a feminist. Some order should be applied in these situations. But, the language issue is quite clear. Holy Liturgy should be heard in the language of the majority of that parish. Why should a church of converts hear it in Russian? I understand the main parts of the Liturgy in Russian, but not the specific parts that refer to a feast day or the Tones. I don't have all the books to read about it in English.

And when we stand in church, we should pray with our whole hearts together. That is a great spiritual strength. But, how in God's name can we focus on the sacred prayers being said when we don't know what is being said? I don't know about others here, but I get moved by words that I understand, whether good or bad. And Holy Liturgy is all good.

Wouldn't it be easier to help non-Orthodox to come to church if they understood what was said? Alot of people are inspired by the beauty of the service, like it's some kind of art form that is so beautiful. They lose out on understanding the worship.

They see bishops and priest and deacons all dressed in fine colorful robes and they see the magnificent icons and smell the sweet incense, but that's all. If they understood what was being chanted, then they would get the meaning of what the Orthodox faith is...they would hear God's words.

So how are we, the English-speaking Orthodox biggots? I think it's the Russians and Greeks that are biggots because they don't want to SHARE God's word. And frankly, even the yayas and babuskas, don't know WHAT is being chanted...for all we know the choir could be chanting ecumenist philosophy, with a few changes to the wording.

So that's another crucial point to think about. If we hear the Holy Liturgy in English then we are able to pick off indiscretions in the Service. What if the Nicean Creed is chanted in English and the choir says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? We would never know, because we wouldn't catch a little change like that. But, if it was in English, then it would be clear that heresy is being spoken in the Orthodox Church.

But, we are expected to just listen to the Russian or Greek chants and we don't know what they are saying. I suspect that even the chanters don't know what is being said because this is from the old language.

BTW. I pray in English. Does that make me a biggot? It's not about us wanting an easier life...we want to hear the Liturgy in English because we want to worship in a language that we talk to God in our prayers? If the Theotokos came to visit me, she would be talking to me in ENGLISH. If she spoke in Russian, I wouldn't understand her. There are many miracles of the Theotokos when she appeared to a saint and she always spoke in their language.

We are used to the Greek and Russian chants and they are so beautiful. Now we have to make them beautiful in English.

Check out ancientfaithradio.com Their chants in English really inspire a person because it's in a language we understand. They chant it with the same tone and I recognized the ones they were chanting which I only heard in Russian. I finally understood. Chanting is a form of glorifying God, but it also teaches truths. The chants of the saint of that day teaches something about the saint.

Anyways, I can go on and on, but I think I've said enough. If a person loves to hear the Liturgy in Russian..great, but let's not be insensitive to those who want to hear it in English...that's just plain insulting to a person's free will. The books are translated into English, why not the services?

In Christ, Joanna

Christ is Risen!

Joanna you bring up many solid points. I recently moved away from my English speaking ROCOR parish which is made up of mostly coverts. The Liturgy is in English with a few short sections in Slavonic. Now - in my new area - the ROCOR church is all Russians and the Liturgy is Slavonic with a few short sections in English. It certainly had an effect on my participation. Since I was baptised on Holy Saturday '06 I have been trying to take communion regularly. My wife and our children were also baptised during this past year so we have been trying to stay dilligent towards the Eucharist as a family. We went to the Slavonic ROCOR so we could take communion but we certainly did miss hearing the service in English (not to mention missing the fellowship of English speaking Orthodox as well as other children for our four young ones to enjoy). Now we are faced with a tough decision. Assimilate and learn Russian and Slavonic OR leave ROCOR and consider another jurisdiction which has English services. We have visited a few other jurisdictions and they just don't have the traditional feel we are used to with ROCOR (there was an OCA parish which at least did not have pews).

Anyway - aside from the above mentioned - my priest back home tells me that he hears ROCOR will be focusing even more on Slavonic after they unite with the MP. We speculate this may be to bring the idea of "mother Russia" and "Russian nationalism" to the large Russian population here in the USA who are not attending Church or who have become protestants. We also speculate that maybe this new strategy will push many of the English speaking converts perhaps to OCA. This might be fine with the new ROCOR which is taking shape and might even provide some kind of "solution" to the territorial situation that exists for ROCOR and OCA. Again, this is just speculation but a situation like this might be desired by the new MP/ROCOR church if they going to try to focus more on the Russians here in the USA.

Whatever happens we are faced with trying to deal with finding a new parish which speaks English and can provide family fellowship.

[Pravoslavnik]

Dear Catechumen;

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       I certainly sympathize with your dilemma, because my family and I have struggled with the same issues for the past decade in the ROCOR.  I love the traditional praxis and Slavonic liturgy of the ROCOR, but I have realized recently that my teenagers have missed out on many of the benefits of the services that come from understanding what is being said.  After visiting an OCA parish recently, my 13 year old daughter said, "Dad, I really like it here.  I can understand everything that they are saying!"  The low point in the ROCOR for our family was when the priest stopped giving sermons in English for a time.  I also missed the chanting and reading of the canons in English after our ROCOR parish was "Russified" a few years ago.
         The reality of the current "Russification" of the American ROCOR under Metropolitan Laurus is that, in a generation or so, the recent Soviet emigres and their children will also be speaking English more, and, perhaps, drifting away from the Church.  This had already happened to an earlier generation of Russian emigres who established the ROCOR parishes in America during the past century.  My own opinion is that this new Russian nationalism in the ROCOR is not only misguided, and detrimental to the English speaking flock of the ROCOR Synod, it is contrary to the canons of the Orthodox Church concerning "phyletism," the establishment of Orthodox parishes which are segregated on the basis of ethnicity and language.  Another consideration is that the Moscow Patriarchate, itself, granted autocephalous stauts to the OCA in 1970 as the legitimate, canonical Church administration for our geographical locale.  To be consistent, the MP should now direct the ROCOR parishes of America to the administration of the OCA.

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

I don't think that the OCA or MP or New Calendar Orthodox are a positive alernative, even if they have English services. The main focus is to be right with God and if that means a Russian-speaking service or other, then so be it. We will have to work on the English version in time.

In Christ, Joanna

[Pravoslavnik]

"I don't think that the OCA or MP or New Calendar Orthodox are a positive alernative, even if they have English services. The main focus is to be right with God and if that means a Russian-speaking service or other, then so be it. We will have to work on the English version in time."

Dear Joanna;

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      After May 17th the ROCOR parishes will be using the same chrism and drinking from the same cup as their Moscow hierarchs and the OCA.  Why do you think that the post-May 17th ROCOR parishes will comprise a fundamentally different "right" Church body than the MP and the OCA?  I don't follow the logic.  As I demonstrated in my post on this board entitled "A Mathematical Solution to the MP/ROCOR Problem," it appears that the logical ecclesiastical alternatives are the OCA or a traditional Orthodox Church that is not in communion with the MP (and new ROCOR.) Whether or not the services are in Russian is a completely irrelevant issue ecclesiologically.  Incidentally, I have been told that a very substantial percentage of the ROCOR parishes in America are English speaking, American convert parishes.  There is a fairly extensive history of "English usage" in the ROCOR.  The "English version" of Russian Orthodoxy in America has been in praxis for quite some time--e.g., the Menaion and extensive musical transcriptions of Dr. Clader.  What is new is the focus on Russian/Soviet nationalism in the ROCOR, which  has more to do with Vladimir Putin, the KGB "emigration" department, Patriarch Alexei (Ridiger), and his associate Metropolitan Laurus than with the history of Russian Orthodoxy in America.

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Pravoslavnik,

I don't know what you are arguing about, but I was talking about something else. I was just saying that it may take time to have English services.

BTW. I'm with the catacombs now. Have been for a few weeks. So, I'm not making a defense for ROCOR. I'm just talking about the language issue. Read carefully.

In Christ, Joanna

[catechuman]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Pravoslavnik,

I don't know what you are arguing about, but I was talking about something else. I was just saying that it may take time to have English services.

BTW. I'm with the catacombs now. Have been for a few weeks. So, I'm not making a defense for ROCOR. I'm just talking about the language issue. Read carefully.

In Christ, Joanna

What jurisdiction is the catacombs? What has been your experience so far?