Evolution and an Orthodox Patristic understanding of Genesis

[michigan]

Could you give us a link to which church fathers said that?

There seem to be plenty of logical and scientific arguments against evolution, anyway.

[jckstraw72]

i find it interesting that some Church Fathers believed the days were 1000 yrs each, bc basically they interpret the days of Genesis as an allegory, but when it says "a day is as a thousand years to the Lord" they take that literally and apply it to Genesis. Maybe its just me, but the day=1000 yr verse is quite obviously a figure of speech. the point is that God is outside time. its not like a day is actually like a thousand years to Him or anything, bc a day could equal a nano second, or 10,000,000 years to God--its all the same to He Who is eternal.

[Pensees]

Could you give us a link to which church fathers said that?

There seem to be plenty of logical and scientific arguments against evolution, anyway.

Justin Martyr
"For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years [Gen. 5:5]. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression ‘The day of the Lord is a thousand years’ [Ps. 90:4] is connected with this subject" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 81 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus
"And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since ‘a day of the Lord is a thousand years,’ he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin" (Against Heresies 5:23:2 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria
"And how could creation take place in time, seeing time was born along with things which exist? . . . That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: ‘This is the book of the generation, also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth’ [Gen. 2:4]. For the expression ‘when they were created’ intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression ‘in the day that God made them,’ that is, in and by which God made ‘all things,’ and ‘without which not even one thing was made,’ points out the activity exerted by the Son" (Miscellanies 6:16 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first and second and third day existed without a sun and moon and stars and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? . . . I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance and not literally" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:1:16 [A.D. 225]).

"The text said that ‘there was evening and there was morning’; it did not say ‘the first day,’ but said ‘one day.’ It is because there was not yet time before the world existed. But time begins to exist with the following days" (Homilies on Genesis [A.D. 234]).

Cyprian
"The first seven days in the divine arrangement contain seven thousand years" (Treatises 11:11 [A.D. 250]).

Augustine
"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 [A.D. 408]).

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation" (ibid., 2:9).

An old earth would not prove evolution, nor would it negate the historicity of Genesis.

Peace.

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

I've been looking at this issue and have come across some very interesting discoveries. Creationism can be explained scientifically and it will not compromise the Holy Traditions. But, evolutionism is more full of holes than swiss cheese. I'm sure many people have tried to make sense of how science and faith can agree without compromising the faith.

Well, the earth and all that exists is evidence of how God is present because the events of the Bible can be explained as something that really happened and not just poetry.

Let's start with the first topic. The age of the earth. Is it billions of years old or only 6,ooo years old?

I'd like to hear what anybody has to say about it.

In Christ, Joanna

[GOCPriestMark]

Let's start with the first topic. The age of the earth. Is it billions of years old or only 6,ooo years old?

I'd like to hear what anybody has to say about it.

I found this site very interesting: Evolution-facts.org

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

First, let me say that I believe in the Holy Bible in it's accuracy. Therefore, I am not questioning what is in it. Posters who know me here, will know I am not questioning. But, I thought it would be interesting to persue a spiritual discussion here. I've heard the Christian Creationists' view, which sounds quite in line with the Bible, but I wanted to get the holy fathers explanation.

Sometimes googling is a hit and miss adventure, so I thought I would get better results here. I think all Christians(and for that matter all mankind) should come to understand what the Bible taught. Mankind in the Old Testament was quite brilliant. They knew about the functions of earth, when we thought we were discovering them for the first time during the "Enlightenment" era.

Learning about the scientific facts that God established is a way of teaching traditional theology for the holy prophets could see all of that, all the way back to Adam and Eve. It was a complete different earth back then, pure and free. But, it can still be witnessed in the Old Testament. That's why I put it in this forum. If the moderators feel that there is a more appropriate place, then please do move it.

So I hope that this will be an interesting thread and that we can all bring information that will help us to further glorify God in is infinite wisdom.

And thank you to Fr. Mark for getting the ball rolling.
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Here is a passage from Genesis 1: 6-8

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

There was waters above the firmament(Heaven) and waters below the firmament. Does Heaven refer to the sky? And what was the waters above Heaven?

Does anybody have St. John Chrysostom's explanation? Or a website?

In Christ, Joanna

[TomS]

There was waters above the firmament(Heaven) and waters below the firmament. Does Heaven refer to the sky? And what was the waters above Heaven?

Does anybody have St. John Chrysostom's explanation? Or a website?

In Christ, Joanna

This is explained in the book by Fr. Seraphim Rose