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Savva24
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Posts: 180
Joined: Sat 14 June 2003 10:25 am

Post by Savva24 »

[ I was just reading through some words of Mark of Ephesus and as they are beautifully harsh and truthful about never wanting any communion with the Latin unionist bishops (in life or death), he did point them out as graceless. It seemed to me awfully close to the spirit and method of St. Maximos.

I am sorry, I don't know what is wrong with me today. I wrote the above leaving out the most important word. I left out the word ''not''. Thus the above should read:

I was just reading through some words of Mark of Ephesus and as they are beautifully harsh and truthful about never wanting any communion with the Latin unionist bishops (in life or death), he NOT did point them out as graceless. It seemed to me awfully close to the spirit and method of St. Maximos.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Nicholas,

Exactly what are you trying to say?

If you are trying to show that the Holy Fathers never denied Grace to heretics, well, let me put it to you this way: There are many, many, many cases where they clearly did, examples of which could correspond to many situations we see today. And in the cases where theydidn't deny Grace - they also didn't say they had it and in most of those cases, imply they don't.

The qoute, provided by Methodius in another thread:

From a presentation of Bishop Kallistos Ware to the Orientale Lumen V conference:

"In the seventh century, in Byzantium and the West, very many people fell away in the heresy of Monotheletism. This caused great confusion in the Church. Saint Maximus, who was only a layman, stood firm and did not give way. When he was in exile, emissaries of the emperor came and said: "You are alone. The emperor has agreed to it. The Patriarch has agreed to this. The Pope of Rome has agreed to it. You are outside the Church."

"No," said Saint Maximos,"in that case, I 'am' the Church."

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Nicholas,

Both of our posts are about as sloppy as they come :D

Your qoute: "As for those who think to the contrary, as corruptors of the truth, let us take them in and cure them, as far as we are able; but as for those who are incurably ill, let us repudiate them, lest we be infected by their sickness before we impart our own health to them.

St. Gregory the Theologian (at the time of a Semi-Arian schism, 4th Century)

Yes! Let us "take them in" - that is, into the Church!

Savva24
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat 14 June 2003 10:25 am

Post by Savva24 »

OOD: Both of our posts are about as sloppy as they come

Dear OOD,

Code: Select all

Thank you for your kindness in including yourself in the blame for the sloppy posting fiasco the other day.  I think it is obvious that my posts were ridiculously unclear and sloppy when yours were quite lucid and together.  But it was kind of you to include yourself in that mess so as to make me feel that I am not as stupid as I really am.  I will remember that kindness.

OOD: ''Exactly what are you trying to say? If you are trying to show that the Holy Fathers never denied Grace to heretics, well, let me put it to you this way: There are many, many, many cases where they clearly did, examples of which could correspond to many situations we see today. And in the cases where theydidn't deny Grace - they also didn't say they had it and in most of those cases, imply they don't.''

I am not trying to say that the Saints never denied grace to the heretics; but perhaps it is not so black and white before heretics have been cut off by a general synod of bishops. What I am trying to say (with the eloquence of a moose) is that I know and understand that ‘’walling off’’ is a valid and necessary part of Orthodox practice and that we should never commune with heretics. However, I think that there is a significant difference between walling oneself off from heresy when it arises in the Church (which St. Maximus, Mark of Ephesus, et all have done throughout history) and making it the official position of one’s jurisdiction to declare those you are walling yourselves off from as devoid of grace before an great council has completely cut them off (which I do not see the above mentioned saints doing). Perhaps certain saints have believed that those they are walling themselves off from are devoid of Grace, but I don't see them touting it around as their ''official position''. This is the point where we disagree. [I realize that you believe St. Maxmus’s statement quoted as cutting every one else out of the Church, but in my opinion, he is not necessarily negating the possibility that there could be others confessing the faith that would also make them ‘’in the Church’’ from within the body of Churches in communion with the heretical bishops].
As Justin (Paradosis) pointed out on another thread, it took hundreds of years before the west was completely cut off from the Church. It is not like as soon as some bishops started proclaiming the Filioque, the whole west was in an instant not Orthodox. It was a long way from there to the Anathemas.
Or what about the bishop who baptized St. Constantine the Great on his deathbed? He had very heretical leanings. But does it mean that since he held heretical beliefs that St. Constantine’s baptism was invalid? No, because the bishop was still in the Church at the time, not yet having been excommunicated by a council.
In my opinion, it is hasty (and possibly blasphemous if wrong) to make a definite decision as to who has Grace and who doesn’t in these confusing times. If your jurisdiction adhered to the rule you pointed out to me, namely that ''(t)he GOC has not condemned anyone - we simply say, as ALL of the Holy Fathers, that there are no Mysteries of the Church among heretics and those who commune with them. Any condemnation is self inflicted and between them and God'', I would have no problem, but your synod definitely makes the point of declaring who has grace and who doesn’t (New Calendarists) before the judgment of a council which I think is dangerous.

Again, I apologize for the sloppiness of the other day. I couldn’t really pull my thoughts together after work for some reason. This coupled with the fact that since my wife has started yelling at me for using the internet too much, thinking that it is a waste of our few hours a day we have together, I have to steal a few minutes at a time on the internet while she is in the shower or out on an errand in the neighborhood. Not even married three months and I already have to deceive. What a life, married life….

In Christ,

Nicholas

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Nicholas,

How many hundreds of these heretics are within the new-calendarist organization? I just tried summarizing the list of situations and people I know in my own area, and it grew so long I deleted it and placed this sentence in its place. Suffice it to say, these heretics (and I know people are "tired" of that word) are not limited to certain "bishops" and "priests". The corruption and desolation is spreading to every acre and every new-calendarist.

As you seem to agree, Heretics have no Grace. Their ordinations are not Ordinations, their communion is not Communion. Their liturgies are not Liturgies. All those priests under a heretic bishop are as he is - Graceless. And in the period of 80 years, who can say who was ordained and baptised by who? If our Lord Jesus Christ gave us the spiritual eyes to see, we would not see Orthodox Priests and Bishops, we would see fallen and wounded men, pulling others down with them by the thousands.

But as it is with "walling off", it is impossible to speak of an absence of Grace. One is forced to accept heretic baptisms, and thus a quasi-communion exists with heretics, which is most absurd. In the history of the Church, one does see periods where this Saint or that group were "walled off". But in such cases, it was almost ALWAYS for canonical infractions, or in the cases of heresy, the heresy was very isolated.

"With a great voice, Saint John Chrysostom declared that not only heretics, but also they who hold communion with them are enemies of God," writes Saint Theodore the Studite. The entire written and unwritten Tradition of the Church, all the Saints and the Apostles in the Holy Scriptures declare the heretics and those who are in communion with them are Graceless. If you would like we could start another thread to list them all!

And to your point of slowly receading Grace:

The churches Grace is immediatley withdrawn from the heretics, and slowly from the people who become aware of it but do nothing.

When Nestorius first taught heresy in Constantinople, the other Orthodox Churches, even though they kept the Orthodox Faith, continued to maintain unbroken canonical relations with the Church of Constantinople and with Nestorius. Why did the few priests and laymen of Constantinople act differently? Why did they cease commemorating their Archbishop, and why did they publicly denounce him? By this act did they not place themselves outside of the Orthodox Catholic Church? Especially since the excommunication issued by their Archbishop (with whom all the Patriarchs and Bishops of the world were in communion) had descended on their heads? Which local Church of those that maintained the Orthodox Faith unsullied had canonical relations with the true Orthodox Christians of Constantinople? The Church of Jerusalem? That of Antioch? That of Rome? That of Alexandria? Not one. All the Churches maintained relations only with the Official Church of Constantinople and Patriarch Nestorius. If, because of the heresy of her Archbishop, the Church of Constantinople became automatically heretical, (that is, without prescription by the other Churches, which came later), then all the local Orthodox Churches became heretical, since they were in communion with a heretical
Church!?

In fact, neither the genuine Orthodox Christians of Constantinople who had been excommunicated by Nestorius were ever outside the Church, nor did the other local Churches ever become heretical, since they had never agreed with Nestorius. However, Nestorius’ heresy had not yet become widely known. Rumors were circulating, but things had only been substantiated or clarified for the residents of Constantinople because they had personally heard Nestorius’ preaching. For them, to continue in communion with Nestorius would have been tantamount to true heresy. The others were justified in remaining in communion until they could ascertain the facts of the matter. In such instances, communion is broken with a heretic little by little by the surrounding Churches, according to their measure of awareness of their neighbor’s heresy.

Today, after so many years, there is no excuse for anyone. No one should be scandalized, therefore, on hearing me say, on the one hand, that the new-calendarists are in heresy, and on the other, that we accept that the grace of the Mysteries was still with them in the beginning but that it was lost little by little as the sickness advanced, and until now, when there may not be a right-believing bishop left among them.

The Orthodox do not await the Church’s pronouncement of anathema in order to withdraw from heretics. All who become aware of an outbreak of a disease, withdraw without waiting for the order to be given to them by the health authorities. Circumstances may prevent such an order from ever being given, or of it being given too late. Those infected with a disease are thus infected whether the physicians know it or not, or whether they declare it or not. They who are near may be the first to comprehend the gravity of the disease, and they must be the first to leave since they are in greater danger than all the rest. Heresy is heresy whether it has been anathematized or not. Death comes to those who remain in communion with it, while awaiting, perhaps forever, for a synodal clarification.

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