Who's gonna leave??!!!

[strastnaya]

And again, I'll post my position...
The MP has done EVERYTHING required in order to order a reunification of the Russian Church. EVERYTHING. They have repented, they have renounced Sergianism, they have glorified the New Martyrs, and they are not ecumenist. Regardless of what one or two reckless priests or bishops has done or said, its over. If there was a case to be made otherwise, the bishops of ROCOR would not have entered into talks with the MP.

If you look at who left the ROCOR for various groupings (ROCIE, ROAC, etc) and then look at who is leaving now, well, one could have predicted most of this because these folks have never been able to deal with an ecclesiological situation that demands obedience to the canons or to a reality that isn't defined by themselves or to a historical understanding that takes into account more than their own perceived sufferings.
That the ROCOR nutured and sheltered many of these people who after they depart into a purer formulation, have only the nastiest and most hateful things to say concerning those they have left - well that says it all. One can only question the Christianity of people who spew hatred in the name of "love". Pretty twisted, yet easily available in these forums.
It was said before that psychological ambivalence is what drives a lot of the schismatic activity in the Orthodox, one can only pray for these souls to be loosed form the demons who totally control their passions concerning Church politics.
The Lord said the gates of hell shall not prevail, why can't this suffice?
Deacon John

[scwaterfowl]

Deacon John,
You state my position much better than I; thank you.

[Pravoslavnik]

"The MP has done EVERYTHING required in order to order a reunification of the Russian Church. EVERYTHING. They have repented, they have renounced Sergianism, they have glorified the New Martyrs, and they are not ecumenist. "

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

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    Can someone please give me some examples of the "repentance" of the KGB-appointed heirarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate?  I have been carefully studying their pronouncements during the past two years, and I see no documentary evidence of this "repentance."  I have also studied the Mitrokhin archives in great detail, and it seems quite evident that only the most cynical, Godless men were promoted by the KGB within the heirarchy of the MP during the past few decades.  These heirarchs have been accused of everything from outright murder to theft and debauchery--even demanding to sleep with priests' wives (or priests) as conditions for promotion or advancement.  Is this true?
   I have been an ignorant layman in the ROCOR during the past decade, and I came to this forum this week, at long last, looking for information and answers about the impending unification of the ROCOR and the MP.  I frankly do not know where to go.  My own parish was largely comprised of American converts until 2000, when our former (American) priest departed, and a new priest from Jordanville was appointed rector by (then) Bishop Kyril of San Francisco.  Since that time, our parish has been transformed almost entirely into a parish of recent Russian emigres from the MP, and I have assumed that this God's will.  Our warden, readers, newly ordained deacon, and Parish Council members are all recent emigres from Russia, at the same time that the few remaining Americans have continued to pay the parish bills and stand silently in the back of the church.  I suspect that at least one of the newly appointed Russian leaders of the parish may well be a KGB agent, employed in a high-tech industry locally for several years, as described in the modus operandi for KGB placement of Amrican agents in the Mitrokhin archives.
  There is a definite Russian nationalist spirit in the current culture of our parish, and our Russian (Canadian) priest almost sounded like Mussolini when he returned from the All Diaspora Conference in May to announce the resolution for reunification with the MP; talking loudly (in Russian) about the great importance of establishing a strong, unified Russian Orthodox Church in America for the Russian people!  How's that for being "Catholic and Apostolic?"  I was, frankly, aghast, and have not been to confession or communion since the feast of the Transfiguration.
   I read the letter of Archpriest Gregory Williams on-line this week and took great comfort in it.  "By their fruits you shall know them."  I do not know Father Gregory, but know that he has laboured long in the Lord's vineyard at the St. John of Kronstadt Press, and the ROCOR missions in Haiti--among the rare charitable works in the`ROCOR that I have observed during my time within the ROCOR.  I have also carefully studied the writings of St. Cyril of Kazan and St. John of San Francisco regarding the Sergianist Church.  Would that St. John were alive today!  If he told me to move to Baghdad and work as a street sweeper, I would surely do it.  I have heard that Metropolitan Philaret, of blessed memory, said before his death many years ago that, "In the future the Greeks (Pantelemonites) will leave us (the ROCOR), and the worldly Russians will join with Moscow.  The remnant that remains will be the true Church."  Does anyone know if this is true?  And, where is this "remnant" for ROCOR parishioners who no longer have a parish? I would appreciate hearing from those with knowledge of these matters.

[scwaterfowl]

Pravoslavnik;
I pray that you come to the correct decision.
Your last paragraph says more than you realise; I know Father Gregory and all he has done.
With all due respect, you must not have been reading or seeing what I have. Simply by recognising the New Martyrs, they have repented and rejected Sergianism, but this is not all that has been done. If you, or anyone, is waiting for something more, it is there, but only those that are open to repentence are able to see it.
Those who are against the ROCOR/MP reunification fall into several categories, but they mostly resemble modern-day secular Jews. They will accept no apology and nothing the Russian Church does will be good enough. Even if they meet the criteria imposed on them, more will be required. The Canons of the Orthodox Church are not treated in the same way as the Latins approach their 'canons.' We are not, and have never been, legalistic and pharisaical in the understanding of them.
There is a lot of poison being injected over this issue and I've come to realise that the nay-sayers are not driven by any love for the Church, but more for their own self interest. I am able to live, work, converse, and associate with anyone, but it seems to me that the ones most vehemently opposed are not concerned with the Church. In fact, one could make the argument that the anti-reunification crowd are controlled by ex-KGB and pro-Communist groups. I did not want to believe it, but it only makes sense; the so-called righteous and just minority vs. the acknowleged sinners. All the while wearing a false halo, passing judgement, quoting the Canons like legalistic Latins, and trying to cause dissent. Fortunately, my family's history tells me that not only what we read is not always right--there are three sides to every story/situation; my side, your side, and what really happened. I'm just so glad that a small (very small) group of Johnny-come-latelys can enlighten us all--insert sarcasm here...
Just wondering, which ROCOR bishops have not publically endorsed the upcoming re-unification?? Which ones have PUBLICALLY denounced it and where is it?? Every person in ROCOR has had questions and concerned throughout this process, and some have been public--I'm not talking about that.
Surely, if I was convinced my bishop was wrong, as well as my metropolitan and EVERY OTHER bishop of my Church was wrong, I would have no choice but to leave.
I can't wait!!!

[Helen]

Pravoslavnik;

With all due respect, you must not have been reading or seeing what I have. Simply by recognising the New Martyrs, they have repented and rejected Sergianism, but this is not all that has been done. If you, or anyone, is waiting for something more, it is there, but only those that are open to repentence are able to see it.

Many times I have been told that the MP has rejected ecumenism and repented of sergianism. When I first heard this I was a bit shocked. How could this happen? I seem to an active Orthodox member and surrounded by the same, and apparently the BIG BANG happened and I and every one around me missed it? If someone could be so kind as to enlighten my ignorance I would be eternally grateful.

Just wondering, which ROCOR bishops have not publically endorsed the upcoming re-unification?? Which ones have PUBLICALLY denounced it and where is it?? Every person in ROCOR has had questions and concerned throughout this process, and some have been public--I'm not talking about that.

And this is what I'm talking about: Just wondering which MP bishop has publically denounced ecumenism and sergianism and where is it?? Every person in the MP has had questions and is concerned about these issues and some have been public -- I'm not talking about that.

Surely, if I was convinced my bishop was wrong, as well as my metropolitan and EVERY OTHER bishop of my Church was wrong, I would have no choice but to leave.
I can't wait!!!

You can't wait for what? For your brothers and sisters in Christ for whom Christ died for on the cross?

[Pravoslavnik]

With all due respect, you must not have been reading or seeing what I have. Simply by recognising the New Martyrs, they have repented and rejected Sergianism, but this is not all that has been done. If you, or anyone, is waiting for something more, it is there, but only those that are open to repentence are able to see it.

Dear SCWaterfowl;

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    I was personally very pleased when the Moscow Patriarchate glorified the New Martyrs, and my wife and I even had an opportunity to venerate the relics of the Royal Martyrs at the St. Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg a few years ago.  Please understand that I have a deep affection for Holy Russia and the Church, although I do not have a drop of Russian blood in my body.  As I have said to people at our ROCOR parish, "I am a spiritual Russian."  At the same time, it has been quite obvious to me since 2000 that "not all Russians are Dostoevskys," as the saying goes.  There does seem to be a growing nationalist, almost neo-fascist, anti-American spirit in Russia, and amongst the Russian emigres in our ROCOR parish, that seems far removed from the spirit of Holy Russia, as I have experienced it in the writings of the Russian saints, and in the liturgical life of our parish formerly.
    There also seems to be a fundamental change in the ROCOR Synod, dating back to 2000.  Our bishop was physically assaulted in his apartment in about 1999, (I was told by a priest that he had been hit in the head, and had a serious head injury at the time) and has publicly retracted his previous critical statements about the MP, since 2000.  There is a former KGB colonel named Preobrazhensky who has posted some articles at Hofstra University claiming that Metropolitan Laurus and Archbishop Mark have been working closely with the KGB since before 2000, when Laurus assumed control of the Synod from Metropolitan Vitaly.  He even claims that Laurus has had an oppulent mansion in Moscow since the 1990's.  (see the following article per link  http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=36104&type=view. ) I do not know whether Preobrazhensky is correct, but his articles are concerning.
     Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Alexey Ridiger publicly initiated the unification talks with Metropolitan Laurus a few years ago.  I read the transcripts about their initial meetings on the official ROCOR website, and was surprised by the somewhat arrogant, condescending tone of Alexey's public statements in these meetings.  They seemed a far cry from genuine sorrow and regret about the longstanding collaboration of the MP with the KGB in the destruction of Orthodox Churches and the murder of priests and heirarchs.  In contrast, Laurus and Mark sounded almost apologetic for the ROCOR's longstanding criticism of the Sergianist Church's collaboration with the Soviet state.
        The process of unification has struck me as a carefully orchestrated dance, with lots of pomp, circumstance, and the appearance of meaningful discussions, leading to a carefully pre-scripted conclusion, somewhat like Soviet style elections, where only one candidate is on the ballot, and honest, open discourse is kept to a minimum.  Our ROCOR bishops are dancing like marionettes in this public show.  In his comments on the All Diaspora Conference, Archbishop Kyril was rapturous about the fact that a websearch in Russia can now turn up many references to St. Ignatius Brianchaninov.  Meanwhile, Kyril has gone to court to wrest a convent building away from the aging, pious nuns in his city, and has privately demanded that his previous writings about the MP be removed from any public circulation.  I suspect that Big Brother Alexey is watching him closely.
      Have you read or heard anything about the repentance of the MP heirarchs for their longstanding collaboration with the KGB?  Isn't it a fact that Alexey Ridiger has been [i]decorated[/i] by the KGB/FSB?  Archbishop Wielgus in Poland has now submitted his resignation in acknowledgement of his sinful collaboration with the Polish secret police in their battle with the Catholic Church.  I, personally, would be happy to forgive these transgressions of the MP heirarchs if I had a sense that these men are truly sorry for what they have done to the Holy Church, and had adopted a new attitude of reverance and humility toward the Church, and toward their brothers and sisters in the ROCOR.  On the contrary, they have even been quite recently engaged in making threats and seizing property of the ROCOR--even, I believe, murdering a ROCOR priest in St. Petersburg who dared to criticize them.

[joasia]

Pravoslavnik

You're wasting your energy in explaining to scwaterfowl. He is pro-union and can't understand that the preservation of the Russian Orthodox Church was carried on by the bishops that left Russia, by the blessing of St. Tikhon and established ROCOR and that the MP is illigitamate. But, just because the ROCOR bishops(except for 3), these days, have been intimidated in bowing down to the fake Russian Church(as fake as the created pseudo-Esphimenou monks), doesn't mean that the meaning of ROCOR is fake. It just means that these bishops will go to the MP and the rest of us will continue to maintain the path of the true Russian Orthodox Church.

And those who oppose the union, at this time, simply don't want to be absorbed with men who refuse to leave the WCC and continue to maintain that they are the true Russian Church. It's quite simple. No fanatism, just plain spiritual common sense. We don't want to be united with imposters who want to be in union with heretics.

Joanna