Are the Old Believers/Old Ritualists Orthodox?

[Priest Siluan]

Well, it is very well-known that many of their practice and "traditions" are nearer to the Pharisaism than to the Orthodoxy

[GOCTheophan]

Dear Theophan,

I thank you for posting these texts. They are very elevant to the topic and I for one found them very nlightening. Thank you.

It would be very useful is someone could post information about the Greek Bishop who consecrated the Bishops for the Priested Old Believers. I had heard that he was defrocked but on another forum someone told me that that had been done uncanonically and that he had now been made a Saint by the EP. Another thing that is interesting is that here was see a one man consecration long before Blessed Matthew!

If however this Bishop did recieve chrismation from the Old Believers who in general believed that the Greeks had fallen away from the Church how could he logically be in any postition to consecrate anyone?

Also interesting is that Fr Kirill Bart who is very vehement in his belief that ROAC does not have Grace is also an equally vehement supporter of the Old Believers!

Theophan.

Theophan.

[Priest Siluan]

If however this Bishop did recieve chrismation from the Old Believers who in general believed that the Greeks had fallen away from the Church how could he logically be in any postition to consecrate anyone?

Yes, it would be a great contradiction. Bishop Amvrosii of Sarajevo (the Greek bishop) converted himself to the Old Believers and he was Metroproplita of Belaya Krinitza until 1848, I think that then he return with the Greek Church

Also interesting is that Fr Kirill Bart who is very vehement in his belief that ROAC does not have Grace is also an equally vehement supporter of the Old Believers!

I think that the answer is that Father Kirill has many things in common with the Old Beleivers, and these things are those negative ones.

On the other hand, a while ago, the ROAC Catacomb Archbishop of Antony Vyatka and Yaransk said that Arzobipos Andrei of Ufa should not be venerate as a New Martyr. And I think that this declaration was in view to that story which Archbishop Andrei finishes his life as an Old Believer, of course, others in ROAC think different.

[Anastasios]

Dear Theophan,

I thank you for posting these texts. They are very elevant to the topic and I for one found them very nlightening. Thank you.

It would be very useful is someone could post information about the Greek Bishop who consecrated the Bishops for the Priested Old Believers. I had heard that he was defrocked but on another forum someone told me that that had been done uncanonically and that he had now been made a Saint by the EP. Another thing that is interesting is that here was see a one man consecration long before Blessed Matthew!

Many familiar with the situation in Greece in the last century knows that there were at least two instances of single-handed consecrations (both by the same bishop btw). The first instance, his consecrations were judged acceptable since there was no way for him to communicate with other bishops during I believe the War of Independence. However, when he later did this again, he was deposed, because the circumstances warranted it (and later strangely enough he was reinstated after repentance!) Clearly it is not a question just of one-handed consecration but of the circumstances behind it. I, as it will probably be no surprise, think he did not have a good case for doing what he did but that's a different argument.

If however this Bishop did receive chrismation from the Old Believers who in general believed that the Greeks had fallen away from the Church how could he logically be in any position to consecrate anyone?

That is a very important point.

Also interesting is that Fr Kirill Bart who is very vehement in his belief that ROAC does not have Grace is also an equally vehement supporter of the Old Believers!
Theophan.

He has many of these so-called "interesting opinions."

Anastasios

[GOCTheophan]

If however this Bishop did recieve chrismation from the Old Believers who in general believed that the Greeks had fallen away from the Church how could he logically be in any postition to consecrate anyone?

Yes, it would be a great contradiction. Bishop Amvrosii of Sarajevo (the Greek bishop) converted himself to the Old Believers and he was Metroproplita of Belaya Krinitza until 1848, I think that then he return with the Greek Church

Also interesting is that Fr Kirill Bart who is very vehement in his belief that ROAC does not have Grace is also an equally vehement supporter of the Old Believers!

I think that the answer is that Father Kirill has many things in common with the Old Beleivers, and these things are those negative ones.

On the other hand, a while ago, the ROAC Catacomb Archbishop of Antony Vyatka and Yaransk said that Arzobipos Andrei of Ufa should not be venerate as a New Martyr. And I think that this declaration was in view to that story which Archbishop Andrei finishes his life as an Old Believer, of course, others in ROAC think different.

Thank you Father.

First off we must seperate the Old Rite from Old Ritualism- I believe St Andrew of Ufa was certainly attached to the latter and tried to win over many Old Believers to the True Church- and as is well known you catch more flies with honey than with bile (I can anticipate comments that will come from me saying that!).

It would be very interesting for me to see someone post documents that would support the Orthodoxy of the Old Believers.

Theophan.

[Hierodeacon Mark]

In the wake of the revolution, there were many clergymen, many of them conservative and slavophile, who longed for the healing of the schism/raskol of the 17th century. Notable among them was Metropolitan Antonii Krapovitskii who laboured for the lifting of the anathemas of the 17th century, considering them nul and void.

There had been Old Believers within the state Church since the year 1800, though they were treated as second class Christians. They were not allowed their own bishops and members of the New Rite state Church were forbidden to worship with these edinovertsy/United Faith Old Believers. they lived in a spiritual ghetto with little or no communication with the broader Church.

Archbishop Andrei of Ufa was a key figure in seeking the re-union (not simply absorption) of the Old Believers with the state Church.

With the knowledge and blessing of Patriarch Tikhon, Archbishop Andrew struggled in negotiations with the 'beglopopovtsy' - those who had received priests from state Orthodoxy. As vicar for the Old Believers within the state Church, he was to also become the bishop of this body of Old Believers.

Like Bp Amvrosii, he read a statement of belief and intent, he annointed himself with the chrism from the time of Patriarch Joseph, of blessed memory - the last Patriarch recognised by both new and Old Ritualists. Sadly this venture did not succeed. Within the pressurised and politicised years following the revolution, Old Believer suspicion won the day. However the legacy of this, was that there were - and still are the Andreevtsy - Old Believers, mainly beyond the Urals, with a canonical episcopate, established with the blessing of the martyred patriarch and through the hand of martyred bishops.

Though there were those who slandered him, investigation by the Holy Synod proved his innocence and the propriety of his actions and that they were sanctioned by the patriarch.

Of course, Archbishop Andrew did not assent to Metropolitan Sergius's pact with the soviets and, cut off from True Orthodox bishops, he received an omophorion and the Holy Gifts from the Belokrinitsy whom he had come (gradually) to accept and recognise as legitimate Orthodox Christians. This was towards the end of his life, during the constant movements of internal exile. Unofficially, there was a fair amount of collaberation between the True orthodox and the Old Believers, though this was low-key land ocalised.

The interesting aspect of Archbishop Andrew's work and mission, was that he saw the seeds of revolution and the Sergianist pact planted in the events of the schism. To him - and to many Old Ritualists - many of the aspects of Sergiansism were not new.

Peter 'the Great's ' subjugation of the Church to the state - the abolition of conciliar Church life - the Church becoming a department of state - confessionally Lutheran or Latin bishops (as fashions changed amongst the religious elite) - Holy Synods containing masons, deists, athiests and goodness knows what else - the attemped destruction of monasticism - the use of priests as spies, even in the confessional - the holocaust against tens of thousands of believers - were signs of things to come. All of this was within the bosom of the Synodal Church.

If we start bandying about canons and canonicity we need to be very careful. The situation of the Synodal Church is, in some repects very shaky! This concern evolved in the thought and writings of Archbishop Andrew who began to reflect grave concerns about the history of the official Church since the schism.

We must beware of vague, broad sweeping statements about Old Believers. Priestly Old Believers DO NOT all follow pharasaical 'traditions' - unlike the extreme priestless Old Believers - though they adhere to strict demanding rules in life, prayer and worship. I have seen extremely competent pharisaism amongst members of the MP, the ROCORites and Greek Orthodox all shouting their mouths off and decrying the practices of others with zeal not according to knowledge.

Old Believers struggled to preserve a patristic understanding of Orthodoxy, the conciliar model of the Church in both administration and worship, traditional iconography, chant and liturgy and many other aspects of Church life. Without their preservation of Old Russian Orthodoxy, much of the spiritual culture and heritage we now see within mainstream Russian Orthodoxy would never have been rediscovered, but would have been consigned to oblivion. Their effect and influence on contemporary Russian Orthodoxy is far stronger than one might think.

This is not to say that they have not followed highly questionable courses of action and shown cunning and some double standards - but survival in the face of terrible persecution establishes extreme rules of play, as modern Russian Church history teaches us.

There are plenty of Orthodox Christians who firmly believe that we can continue to learn a great deal regarding orthopraxis and Traditon from Old Believers.

Spasi Khristos -

Mark, monk and sinner.

ps - The service to St Seraphim of Sarov was written by the Dean of the Old Believers of the patiarchal Church. His young son, the future New Hieromartyr Seraphim of Dimitrov was saved from death and healed by the prayers of the saint.

T