Official OCA position

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Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Who can exercize/apply the ROCOR anathema? Can anyone who wants to use it against anyone else? Is the anathema a guideline or rule or law, which would necessitate further steps for a condemnation (e.g., an ecclesiastical trial), or is it a pronouncement that automatically condemns anyone who is deemed to violate it (ie. any Orthodox Christian can use the anathema to condemn someone or some group)?

I had a talk with my spiritual father yesterday, and to sum up some of what he said: 1) for the anathema to be used, there must be a trial, evidence, a conviction, excommunication, etc.; the anathema is like a canon of the Church: it cannot just be applied by anyone automatically to condemn another; 2) the ROCOR bishops/synod issued the anathema, and they alone hold the power to try someone based on the canon; it was a local pronouncement, effecting ROCOR, and only the ROCOR bishops can exercize the power of the canon when they deem it necessary to do so; 3) the anathema speaks only of those within ROCOR, and does not speak to those outside of ROCOR; this is not to say that we cannot call heresy heresy, or that we cannot point out errors in others; what it does mean, according to my spiritual father, is that we can't use the anathema to beat other jurisdictions over the head; it was issued as a local canons (e.g., by a local council), and that's who it effects: many then, and now, question whether a local council should pass such a pronouncement at all. My spiritual father, for his part, affirms the meaning/content of the anathema, but sees the sectarians who flail it around like a club (my words, not his) just as dangerous as the ecumenists to whom it originally addressed (but again, any ecumenists that might be within the Church abroad). And again, this is not to say that we must keep our mouths shut about things happening outside of ROCOR, but only that we cannot use the anathema to condemn others--especially we layman, since it's not for us to choose how we want to use the canons anyway.

Whatever I might have said that is in error is my fault, and I am sure I am departing from what my spiritual father intended. For whatever I say that is wrong, I hope the Lord will forgive me.

An extra note: this idea expressed above does not line up with every canon, every saint, and every tradition in the Church. No position does. Different times called for different reactions, and just like the Protestants can pick out verses to support their doctrines, so can all of us Orthodox, unfortunately, pick out examples and canons and saints from history that support our side and seem to knock down the other.

I'm also a bit confused why everyone is trying to tie everything into this anathema. The past week has been the first time (that I can recall) that people have tried to tie the monophysites and communing Catholics in with the anathema. These things (communion with these groups) are obviously wrong, and being under the ROCOR anathema is no more damning (literally) than violating any of the other canons (some of which OOD brought up). It seems to me that people are trying to make the anathema into an infallible sword with which any faithful traditionalist soldier--from the newest layman to the oldest bishop--can wield in battle against there heretics. It is not.

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Methodius
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Post by Methodius »

There are local canons that have been accepted by the whole of Orthodoxy and are listed in the Rudder. The Old Calendar Churches seem to have accepted our anathema in this case. It is too bad that World Orthodoxy has not.

To say that anthemas are only good in one's jurisdictions would mean we could only anathemize Latins or Monophysites within Orthodoxy, which of course there are not any of. If we would anathemize someone in our own jurisdiction for such a heresy, surely we can point out others not in our communion who are heretics right? After all heresy is heresy.

I am afraid I may not be being clear, so let me try to explain. If a person professed the branch theory in ROCOR, for instance saying that the Oriental churches and Roman Catholic churches have grace and were the Church invisibly, he would be tried and if he did not repent of his heresy he would be labelled a heretic and anathemized/excommunicated. But if he was in OCA he would not be a heretic? Do you see my problem with this?

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Post by bogoliubtsy »

Not going to go into any depth with this....BUT.... let us not forget that the true position of the OCA is not always reflected in the scholarship of St. Vladimir's Seminary. Before throwing around accusations why not join the orthodoxjurisdictions yahoogroup and pose your questions to Vladyka Tikhon of the OCA's Western Diocese. He clearly articulates the OCA's position, a position that is more traditional than many would believe.

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Peter, Nektarios wrote in to OCA's information minister which anyone is invited to on the OCA website. He relays the official position of the OCA to people who ask. That is what Nektarios asked him about.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Well, I am certainly not trying to prove anything. Therefore, this will be my last reply on this thread - I don't want to seem as if I am trying to "conquer" as it were or anger anyone, people can believe as they wish. And since this is my last reply on this thread, it is a long one. :) But I find it worthy of tears when I see people grabbing at anything to save themselves from the turmoil of what should be an obvious conclusion.

Anathemas are only an expression of Holy Tradition. This expression says: this is our faith, not that, and that those who believe the wrong way are cut off.

Now ecclesiastical trails are necessary to give a person a chance to show he believes this or that. But when it is self-evident, and especially a whole jurisdiction?

The Position of the New Calendarists:
"How great will our responsibility be if we undermine the judgment of the Church, since we think we know the judgment of God. Is it not infinitely preferable, and more humble, and safer, to follow the decisions of the Church? My brother, it is the uttermost delusion for us to be of the opinion that we know for certain what is God's choice. What a terrible sin if individuals, and especially laypeople, declare revolutions of this sort."

The Reply of the Church Fathers:
"But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received, let him be anathema." Galatians 1:8—9

"I shall judge the bishop and the layperson. The sheep are rational and not irrational, so that no layman may ever say that, “I am a sheep, and not a shepherd, and I give no account of myself, but the shepherd shall see to it, and he alone shall pay the penalty for me.” For even as the sheep that follows not the good shepherd shall fall to the wolves unto its own destruction, so too it is evident that the sheep that follows the evil shepherd shall acquire death; for he shall utterly devour it. Therefore, it is required that we flee from destructive shepherds." Apostolic Constitutions, 10:19 (PG 1, 633)

"We forbid all the clergy who adhere to the Orthodox and Ecumenical Council in any way to submit to the bishops who have already apostatized or shall hereafter apostatize." Third Canon of the Third Ecumenical Council

"Ever rekindle this faith within yourselves and keep yourselves unblemished and undefiled, by neither having communion with the aforementioned [Nestorius], nor attending to him as though he were a teacher, so long as he remains a wolf and not a shepherd. . . We are in communion with those clergymen or laypeople that have separated themselves from him or who have been deposed by him on account of the right Faith, because we do not endorse his unjust sentence; rather, we praise those who have suffered, and we say to them, “Blessed are ye if ye are reviled for the Lord’s sake; for the Spirit and the might of God rest upon you." A Letter of Saint Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria, to the Clergy and People of Constantinople before the convocation of
the Third Ecumenical Council, which condemned Nestorius

“I adjure all the people in Cyprus who are true children of the Catholic Church to flee as fast as their feet can carry them from those priests who have fallen and submitted to the Latins; neither
assemble in church with them, nor receive any blessing from their hands. For it is better for you to pray to God in your homes alone than to gather together in churches with the Latin-minded.”
Germanos II, Patriarch of Constantinople

“Among us, neither Patriarchs nor Councils were ever able to introduce innovations, because the defender of Religion is the very Body of the Church - that is, the people themselves - which desire to have their Religion eternally unchanged and identical to that of their Fathers.” Reply of the Orthodox Patriarchs of the East to Pius IX, issued in 1848

“Not only if one possesses rank or knowledge is one obliged to strive to speak and to teach the doctrines of Orthodoxy, but even if one be a disciple in rank, one is obliged to speak the truth boldly and openly.” Letter Two (Book Two) to Monastics Saint Theodore the Studite

The Position of the New Calendarists:
“Since the Church has not deposed them (our heretical bishops), we must not renounce them, nor cease commemorating them.”

The Reply of the Church Fathers:
"He that saith not “Anathema” to those in heresy, let him be anathema.” Seventh Ecumenical Council

“Is the shepherd a heretic? Then he is a wolf! You must flee from him; do not be deceived to approach him even if he appears gentle and tame. Flee from communion and conversation with him even as you would flee from a poisonous snake.” Homily Fifteen, Saint Photius the Great

The Position of the New Calendarists:
“However, until this takes place - that is, their condemnation by the Church - the bishop or the priest who has fallen into heresy continues, by a certain divine economia, to impart divine g race.”

The Reply of the Church Fathers
“Grace and truth came by Jesus. They have forsaken the truth, in which the author of Proverbs boasts, saying, “My throat shall meditate truth”; having embraced falsehood to themselves, it is
clear that they have fallen away from grace.” Acts of the Seventh Ecumenical Council

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Some interesting comments, OOD. I'll leave off replying since it wouldn't really be fair for me to make counter-points when you couldn't counter my counter. :) At the very least, this thread has been much more civil! :mrgreen:

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Post by Methodius »

But it seems that OOD's argument shows why we have to anathemize anyone in heresy and anathemas just defend the truth, not just the truth in one jurisdiction.

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