ROCOR-L UNANIMOUSLY VOTES TO UNITE WITH MP!

[George Australia]

If the clergy hold an "empty chalice" then don't the lay people also?

I said if "I" chose to partake...to me It will be empty( I will not receive the Grace) because I know the truth about their heretical dogmas, just as I know the truth about the papist dogmas;

So, what you are saying is that Christ's Presence or not in the Eucharist of say, a Church in Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate is dependant on whether you are ignorant or not of the "heretical" dogmas of the "World Orthodox Churches." If it is received by someone who is ignorant, then Christ is Present in it, but if it is received by someone who is wise, then Christ is not Present.

would you take Holy Communion in a papist "church"?

No, because I don't think Christ is Present in their Eucharist- even for them. Nor do they worship the same God that I do. The Holy Spirit they worship proceeds from both the Father they Worship and the Son they worship. The Holy Spirit I worship proceeds only from the Father I worship. Therefore I cannot be worshipping the same God as Roman Catholics.

And I said that the clergy hold an empty Chalice(because they promote the heresy of ecumenism - it is their condemnation);

So, if as you say above, the Chalice is empty for the clergy, but contains the Presence of Christ for the ignorant laity, then either:
1) You are saying that the effectiveness of the Mysteries depends on the moral disposition of the Clergy administering it. (which is the heresy of Donatism), or
2) The ministers of the Eucharist are not the clergy, but someone else.
Either way, what you are saying is heresy.

the EP and MP organizations, as they have become, are not blessed by God. The Holy Spirit is Truth and cannot be mixed with heresy.

OK, let's say this is your opinion of them. If thats the case, then when you say:

Economia will be to those laymen who still live in spiritual ignorance...

Whose Economia are you talking about? You cannot be talking about God's Economia, because the issue at hand is the Real Presence and the Divine Energies in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is a Mystery of the Church, and the only one who can dispense the Mysteries of the Church by Economia is the Church, yet you are saying that the Church is not present here. If the Church is not present, how can she practice her Economia? The Economia of an emergency "Arial Baptism" can only be administered by an Orthodox Christian acting on behalf of the Church, in other words, unlike the emergency baptisms of Roman Catholics, the Orthodox Church states that the Church herself must be present in at least one of her members in order that the emergency Baptism be effectual. This is what the Church teaches regarding all her Mysteries. What you are saying is that there is no one acting on behalf of the Church in the Eucharists of the "World Orthodox" since all their clergy are "heretics" who are outside the Church; so, how then can the Church practice Economia where She is not present? The Church cannot consecrate the Bread and Wine where She is not present, and if these clergy are, as you claim, "outside the Church" then who is consecrating the Bread and Wine for the "ignorant laity" to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. You cannot have it both ways, either Christ is Present in the Gifts of the "World Orthodox" or He is not. He cannot be "partially Present" or "Present for some and not for others"....and you guys think the Chysotomites have a strange ecclesiology!

Grace, out of economia can be given to whomever God so wills it.

The Divine Economia, and the Economia of the Church are not the same thing. The Divine Ecomomia refers to things like the history of our Salvation, the forgiveness of sins etc. The Economia of the Church is how the Church operates to administer God's Graces. For Christ to be present in His Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Church must co-operate with God. God's Divine Economy will never turn a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine on your kitchen table into the Body and Blood of Christ. For this to happen, God needs the Church. The Church must be gathered together, must offer the Gifts, must pray the Epiclesis....etc. There can be no Eucharist where there is no Church, so you either have to say that the Eucharist of the "World Orthodox" is an empty ritual, or it is, in fact a Eucharist, which means the fullness of the Church of Christ is present there. It cannot be a Eucharist for some and not for others, because that would mean that the Church is present for some and not for others. Either the "World Orthodox" are the Body of Christ, or they are not, they cannot be both.

Grace cannot be directed by creation;

What a thing for an Orthodox Christian to say! Wherever an Orthodox Priest prays the Epiclesis of the Eucharist, the Gifts become the Body and Blood of Christ, wherever an Orthodox Priest absolves sins on earth, they are absolved in Heaven, wherever an Orthodox Priest prays the epiclesis of any Mystery, the Divine Energies enter it. What do you mean "Grace cannot be directed by creation"? in the Orthodox Church, Creation directs Grace all the time!

I cannot make It move where I will because of what I think is right or wrong -

But with all due respect Joanna, that is exactly what you are doing. You are saying that the Divine Energies are Present for some in the Mysteries of "World Orthodox" Churches and not for others. You are deciding who the Divine Energies are Present for and who they are not Present for based on their level of involvement in what you consider to be "heresy".

Even St. Maximos the Confessor cut himself off from all the hierarchs because of their monothelistic dogmas. He wanted no part in Holy Communion with them, just as St. Mark of Ephesus did.

True.

Would these great saints of the Orthodox Church do such a thing if they believed that the Grace of the Holy Spirit was there?? How could they??

Could you point out where Sts. Maximos the Confessor or Mark Evgenikos ever said that the Mysteries of the Churches from which they have cut themselves off were devoid of the Grace of the Holy Spirit? Think about it calmly for a minute. If that was true, then the Church no longer exists, since every Bishop Consecrated by anyone other than St. Mark Evgenikos is not a true Bishop, since the Mystery of Holy Orders was not present in any Church St. Mark cut himself off from. You cannot say what these Saints believed about the Holy Spirit being Present or not in the Churches they cut off from. And prehaps you should take note of what St. Maximos the Confessor actually said on this issue if you want to follow his example:
"When all the people in Babylon were worshipping the golden idol, the Three Holy Youths did not condemn anyone to perdition. They did not concern themselves with what others were doing, but took care only for themselves, so as not to fall away from true piety. In precisely the same way, Daniel also, when cast into the den, did not condemn any of those who, in fulfilling the law of Darius, did not want to pray to God; but he bore in mind his duty, and desired rather to die than to sin and be tormented by his conscience for transgressing God's Law. God forbid that I, too, should condemn anyone, or say that I alone am being saved. However, I would sooner agree to die than, having apostatized in any way from the right faith, endure the torments of my conscience."

So, Joanna, I am not telling you to act against your conscience. I fully respect your right to believe as you wish. But what I would warn you is that you should not think that your beliefs give you the right to publically proclaim that the Mysteries of an Orthodox Church are empty and that the Holy Spirit is absent from it with impunity. If you are wrong, you will answer, not only for slandering the Church, but for blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And even if you are right, you will anwser for passing judgemnent, and here's why: Our Lord said "With what measuring stick you measure, you shall be measured." The measuring stick you are using to measure Clergy is the Canons and their strict observance. This means that the strict observance of the Canons will be how you will be judged. If you open the Pedalion (Rudder) to the 101st Canon of the fifth-sixth Ecumenical Council, you will see that the Canon forbids the reception of the Body of Christ in Holy Communion in any way other than in the hand. The Canon reads:
" THE great and divine Apostle Paul with loud voice calls man created in the image of God, the body and temple of Christ. Excelling, therefore, every sensible creature, he who by the saving Passion has attained to the celestial dignity, eating and drinking Christ, is fitted in all respects for eternal life, sanctifying his soul and body by the participation of divine grace. Wherefore, if any one wishes to be a participator of the immaculate Body in the time of the Synaxis, and to offer himself for the communion, let him draw near, arranging his hands in the form of a cross, and so let him receive the communion of grace. But such as, instead of their hands, make vessels of gold or other materials for the reception of the divine gift, and by these receive the immaculate communion, we by no means allow to come, as preferring inanimate and inferior matter to the image of God. But if any one shall be found imparting the immaculate Communion to those who bring vessels of this kind, let him be cut off as well as the one who brings them.
So, should you also be condemned for not strictly observing a Canon of an Ecumenical Council when you receive Holy Communion with a Spoon? Why should you be spared?
So, if your conscience directs you to "wall off", and you "wall off", then fine- and I actually commend you for following your conscience. But I will stop applauding if you actually schism from the Church- which is what neither St. Maximos the Confessor, nor St. Mark Evgenikos did. They walled off. What you are talking about is schism. So please don't bring these Holy Saints into disrepute by claiming to follow their example when you say that the Church is devoid of Grace. They never said that.

[joasia]

George,

And the same Council could clarify what constitutes the heresy of "Ecumenism", because the ROCOR anathema defined it as the Branch Theory, which is a doctrine that most "World Orthodox" Churches accused of being "Ecumenist" have openly rejected as heresy.

Then why does Bartholowmew state(in another post here), that there should be tolerance towards monotheistic religions? That they shouldn't be offended. What do you think will offend them...to be told that Orthodox is the true Faith. He gives them the honor of being heard, in concern of their theology. Their theology is fake...it's ridiculous and completely absurd. He supports the branch theory because of his attempts to reconcile with them.

IF A PERSON DIDN'T SUPPORT THE BRANCH THEORY THEN HE WOULD HAVE STATED THE FACT STRAIGHT UP.

Point is that Bartholowmew is making every effort to unite with the heretics...hence supporting ecumenism and stating that all religions have a truth...that is branch theory.

So where do you get the idea that the "World Orthodox" have rejected the branch theory? That's absurd. They're planting leaves on the branches as we speak.

Joanna

[尼古拉前执事]

Dear in Christ, the topics of "World Orthodox" Altar Girls, the Russian Church changing Confession, George Australia switching from the Cyprianites to the EP, The anathemas again the New Calendar and Ecumenism, etc. were getting off topic from the thread about the MP and ROCOR union, so I have moved it to its own thread at http://EuphrosynosCafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7080

[尼古拉前执事]

Word coming out of the exbanded Synod, and I admit that this is third hand, is that all the documents have been approved by a majority, with only Bps Daniel, Agathangel and Gabriel dissenting. Also a date for Met Laurus and Pat Alexei II to sign the documents has been decided upon. The expanded synod ends on 27 Nov/10 Dec, so word should come out shortly thereafter of any official decisions.

[Jozzue]

We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ, opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from one Chalice.
:mrgreen: :bump: :shock:

[scwaterfowl]

I saw that everyone signed with no ROCOR bishop dissenting...
Are you saying that some of our bishops are dishonest?? Deceptive?? Or maybe what you heard was spurrious gossip???

[Justin Kissel]

Word coming out of the exbanded Synod, and I admit that this is third hand, is that all the documents have been approved by a majority, with only Bps Daniel, Agathangel and Gabriel dissenting. Also a date for Met Laurus and Pat Alexei II to sign the documents has been decided upon. The expanded synod ends on 27 Nov/10 Dec, so word should come out shortly thereafter of any official decisions.

Great! I'm only sorry that Gabriel (and to a lesser extent Daniel) didn't go along in the end.