Icons of Stalin- need urgent help.

[Anastasios]

Thank you for your judgement of the spiritual state of others.......another thing that turns me off about the "True Orthodox".

George, I think that was a very mean thing to say, and if I were playing your game, I'd have to say that "that's what I hate about all you EP members." What I said I would say were I true Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Buddhist. The fact is, most people don't yearn for God because they are lazy. That is a pretty basic thought one finds in reading the patristic writings and the Gospels. Interestingly, I did not judge anyone else's spiritual state, but rather an objective condition that I have seen in the Gospels and the Fathers.

You yourself have on several occasions judged others...I guess I can't like the EP because of that...after all, why not lump everyone together? It's so common, it must be right, huh? I must say I find you EP types to be more judgmental than us OC types in all truth. In real life I have been offended far more often by EP types.

I am just surprised that here I am trying to suggest to others that we be kind and loving to all, and not crazy and hateful, in order to provide a better witness, and I get this from you. Maybe I should stop trying to be respectful and polite towards you--it just seems to get thrown back in my face.

Anastasios

[Myrrh]

Dear Theophan,

With all due respect I and others are still waiting for evidentiary support of your claim that the MP hierarchy somehow approves of or condones icons of Stalin in its parishes today or in the recent past. If you cannot produce reasonably convincing physical or documentary evidence of known provenance to support your allegations, then the honorable and intellectually honest thing to do would be to retract your claims for the time being. If later you should find such evidence, then of course it would be proper to reopen the discussion.

I think it's in "process". The museum at the Trinity Lavra has a room dedicated to the 'history' of the Orthodox Church under Stalin which has all the trappings of legitimising the Alexei I line, which as we know is when Stalin needed the support of God for the war against Germany and re-opened churches.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=2153

18 October 2006, 12:39
A documentary about relationships between Stalin and Church

Moscow, October 18, Interfax - A documentary on Stalin and the Third Rome in the Orthodox Encyclopedia series is to be soon released.

Collected in it are unique shots and facts about how Stalin initiated a revival of the Russian Church and attempted to do what no Russian emperor failed to achieve. It was an attempt to realize the idea of Moscow as the Third Rome, which had been once voiced by Monk Philopheus. This theory asserted the historic importance of the Russian capital city as a global political and ecclesiastical center.

The documentary relates how Stalin ordered that film-maker Sergey Eisenstein produce an epic about Ivan the Terrible at the height of the war. The filmmaker put in the autocrat’s mouth the 500-year-old idea of the Third Rome, which began at that time to overcome the former Georgian seminarian, the Vesti news (Rossiya TV channel) has reported.

The authors of the documentary have revealed sensational details and used rare news briefs. Viewers can see in particular how Georgiy Karpov, the state’s overseer of the Church, kisses a new patriarch in the presence of amazed guests. That kiss was a result of long negotiations at the very top, a symbol of the state’s new attitude to the Church.

The enthronement in the Soviet capital is attended for the first time by heads of Orthodox Churches in Europe and the Middle East. Stalin demands that a World Orthodox Religious Center be set up in Moscow as soon as possible.

‘Stalin keeps saying that it takes probe and pressure. Molotov says nothing will come out from it. Stalin pushes: you just try, try it’, relates State Duma deputy Natalia Narochnitskaya, Doctor of History.

The documentary structured as an exciting detective story, tells about the failure of Stalin’s design. But it was thank to it that Patriarch Alexis I managed to initiate a revival of Orthodoxy in Russia by opening 500 new parishes and St. Sergius Laura of the Trinity.

__________________________________________________-

Myrrh

[George Australia]

Thank you for your judgement of the spiritual state of others.......another thing that turns me off about the "True Orthodox".

George, I think that was a very mean thing to say, and if I were playing your game, I'd have to say that "that's what I hate about all you EP members." What I said I would say were I true Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Buddhist. The fact is, most people don't yearn for God because they are lazy. That is a pretty basic thought one finds in reading the patristic writings and the Gospels. Interestingly, I did not judge anyone else's spiritual state, but rather an objective condition that I have seen in the Gospels and the Fathers.

You yourself have on several occasions judged others...I guess I can't like the EP because of that...after all, why not lump everyone together? It's so common, it must be right, huh? I must say I find you EP types to be more judgmental than us OC types in all truth. In real life I have been offended far more often by EP types.

I am just surprised that here I am trying to suggest to others that we be kind and loving to all, and not crazy and hateful, in order to provide a better witness, and I get this from you. Maybe I should stop trying to be respectful and polite towards you--it just seems to get thrown back in my face.

Anastasios

Anastasios,
Take a look at what you said and the context in which you said it:

I do not believe that the vast majority are turned off for that reason, no. I think the vast majority are turned off because of their sinfulness and laziness.

"Turned off" from what? Don't you mean the "True Orthodox" Chuches? Therefore, what you are saying is that if someone does not join a "True Orthodox" Church it is most likely because they are sinful and spiritually lazy. Could you please tell me how this is "polite" and "non-judgemental"?

[Brian]

I think it's in "process". The museum at the Trinity Lavra has a room dedicated to the 'history' of the Orthodox Church under Stalin which has all the trappings of legitimising the Alexei I line, which as we know is when Stalin needed the support of God for the war against Germany and re-opened churches.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=2153

Dear Myrrh,

Thank you for the link. The documentary sounds like it will be interesting and informative. I'm willing to wait patiently for the proof that Theophan says is out there. My issue here is not whether Stalinists influenced the Church back in the 30's and 40's (we already know that the authorities did), but Theophan's claim made on OC.net that Stalin icons can be found in MP churches today (or in the recent past), with the implication that the MP hierarchy somehow approves or allows veneration. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there were some fringe nationalist groups that look back on 'Uncle Joe' with fondness and have created some icons of him, as that weird website seems to have done; but what paranoids, ultra-nationalists, racists, and other nuts do, even if they belong to some Orthodox jurisdiction, is no indication of official approval or consent by that jurisdiction. So my position is simply that a fantastic claim deserves some sort of tangible substantiation. While I am certainly interested in learning more about the dark Stalinist period in Russian religious history - history is always fascinating - the real issue is Theophan's claims about the present not the past. I hope that clarifies things.

Sincerely,
Brian

[Anastasios]

Anastasios,
Take a look at what you said and the context in which you said it:

I do not believe that the vast majority are turned off for that reason, no. I think the vast majority are turned off because of their sinfulness and laziness.

"Turned off" from what? Don't you mean the "True Orthodox" Chuches? Therefore, what you are saying is that if someone does not join a "True Orthodox" Church it is most likely because they are sinful and spiritually lazy. Could you please tell me how this is "polite" and "non-judgemental"?[/quote]

George, of course I believe the GOC is the Orthodox Church and that all people in the world should be a part of it. I'm not going to apologize for that and it is not judgmental of me to say that. You think that we are schismatics in need of return to the EP and I don't think you are judgmental for saying that. I think that most New Calenadrists do not investigate the GOC because of sinfulness and spiritual laziness. But I also allow for the fact that GOC nastiness may turn a large number off as well. I would also add ignorance, in the true sense of the word, as a category. And I say this in the larger context that spiritual laziness and sin pervades everything everyone does--I condemn myself as being lazy for not living a pious Orthodox life first and foremost. I think most people do not investigate Orthodoxy per se for the same reasons, or Christianity, or theism. I am not trying to be dogmatic but merely outline the reaosns that one might have for not joining the GOC, which is as the name suggests, the real Orthodox Church, and think you plucked my words out of the intent of my post and attacked me for something when I was just a few posts back sympathizing with New Calendarists! If you turned around and used my reasons for why we all do not join the EP, that would be fine with me, and I wouldn't think of suggesting you were impolite or judgmental. Basically, George, I see a total double standard in that you decry my alleged judgmentalism (when I was simply making some broad observations which can be applied to any situation) and say it's symptomatic of us GOC types (which is ludicrously judgmental and stereotypical in and of itself) when I know based on your no-holds-barred approach to things that you have your theories for why we are not in your Church, and I am sure not all of them are nice. I've seen you play the same game George here and on OCnet, so argue with me about the facts all you want but don't call me judgmental and suggest that it's intrinic to us GOC types. That's just way to judgmental and stereotypical of a thing to do.

Debating with you and other New Calendarists often makes me want to harden my heart and makes me think that there is no benefit to treating New Calendarists with the benefit of the doubt; after all, it would be so much easier for me here if I did that. Instead, I try to be sympathetic and see some postives in "World Orthodoxy" but all that gets me is ire from my own co-religionists and accusations from your camp. But I'm not going to cave in to the pressure, since I believe my cautious position is correct, and I have to stand up for what I believe.

Anastasios

[Brian]

bump

Any word yet on those icons Theophan?

[Sean]

Regardless of whether those who blasphemously venerate pseudo-icons of Stalin are a fringe group or not, they are perhaps the most honest members of the MP in the sense that they venerate the actual father of their "church." Stalin elected Sergius Stragorodsky as the "Patriarch," and not a canonical sobor (which actually elected St. Kyrill of Kazan to be St. Tikhon's successor).

Why does this false union between ROCOR and the MP require forgetting the truth?