Holiness...in graceless "World Orthodoxy" ?

[Лука]

Dear all,
I would like to open a discussion about holy Elders of "World Orthodoxy" according to the T.O. Churches ...
I know the ecclesiological position of Traditional Orthodox Churches about the gracelessness of official Churches of "World Orthodoxy" but ... according to this clear ecclesiology, what the opinion and explanation about those holy Elders of World Orthodoxy as Elder Paisius of Mt. Athos , Archimandrite Sophronij (Sacharov) , Schema-Archimandrite Zosima , Elder Sabbas of the Pskov Caves , Fr. John Krestyankin , Matushka Alipia and many , many others ?
What's the position of T.O. Churches towards these Elders of our times ?
And what's your opinion about ?
Do you recognize holiness in their lives ? But then , how is it possible sainthood in Churches considered graceless ? Are they , in your opinion , examples of the Spirit Who blows where it wills ? Or what else ? Is their holiness of life not recognized ?
I hope that this argument can be interesting for someone.

[ioannis]

What is your position regarding the "holy elders" of Roman Catholicism? Protestantism? Anglicanism?

What do the Holy Fathers tell us of the holiness of schismatics and heretics?

If your mother baked a wonderful chocolate cake and put frosting on it, and served it to you, and oh, by the way, she accidentally dropped a dog terd in it while she was making it; but never mind that, you can eat around it?? What sentamental thoughts we could all have about how great that cake looked...and thats about it. And what great sentamental thoughts we could have about all of the perceived holiness of ecumenist-orthodoxy, roman catholicism, protestantism, ect. but I certainly would not eat around their terds.

The point is, when you are in Communion, you cannot have that Communion in only the bits and pieces you prefer. It is all One Body, if that be Christ's Body then Glory to God, if that be the Body which includes Monophysites, Ecumenists, and the host of other ills, all enemies of Christ, then you partake of their Body, not Christ's, no matter how deep the corner you think you are hiding in.

[GOCTheophan]

Dear all,
I would like to open a discussion about holy Elders of "World Orthodoxy" according to the T.O. Churches ...
I know the ecclesiological position of Traditional Orthodox Churches about the gracelessness of official Churches of "World Orthodoxy" but ... according to this clear ecclesiology, what the opinion and explanation about those holy Elders of World Orthodoxy as Elder Paisius of Mt. Athos , Archimandrite Sophronij (Sacharov) , Schema-Archimandrite Zosima , Elder Sabbas of the Pskov Caves , Fr. John Krestyankin , Matushka Alipia and many , many others ?
What's the position of T.O. Churches towards these Elders of our times ?
And what's your opinion about ?
Do you recognize holiness in their lives ? But then , how is it possible sainthood in Churches considered graceless ? Are they , in your opinion , examples of the Spirit Who blows where it wills ? Or what else ? Is their holiness of life not recognized ?
I hope that this argument can be interesting for someone.

Elder Sophrony from our human vantage point is in a grey area. I know that many in Russian True Orthodoxy recognise him. What though about Roman Catholic saints in the early years after the schism? They appear to have an almost "Orthodox" holiness until the 13 century begins. After the branch has fallen from the tree it does not whither and crumble straight away, but it has still been cut off from the roots of the tree- that maybe a bad analogy.

However Ioannis is right we have to guide ourselves by canons and dogmas.

Theophan.

[michigan]

So world Orthodoxy is without grace now, is it? :ohvey:

[spiridon]

Well reguardless of what you hear, it isnt anybodys right to say or judge who has the Grace of God and who hasnt, as if God had really spoken to them and told them, some Holy Fathers were often asked why havent you spoken on certain matters , and they simply would respond "The holy spirit has not spoken to me about these things, and therefore i dare not to speak of such matters" in the days of old there was such Piety that one never spoke aloud,especially judgement, the holy Fathers and Saints watched there tongue and Heart very carefully, St.Anthony confessed to his Spiritual children at His deathbed that since his tonsure as a monk he could not relieve the fear of Death from his thoughts- and was scared that he hadnt done as much as He shouldve done to be saved...now if Blessed St.Anthony wasnt saved, I should just pack my bags and give up right now, But wether he was saved wasnt a question , for he was numbered with the Saints of god in Heaven, what he left us was a TRUE understanding that even though they lived a Saintly life, they were still of this world and bothered and attacked as you and me...OUR AIM IS TO BE SAINTS OURSELVES- so next time someone trys to hook you like a fish to join in on idle talk about who doesnt have God`s Grace, lower your head and remember a Saint wouldnt enguage in such filthy talk about his Brothers and sisters who are lost, even here in california rumors fill the air of a roman catholic elder who is guiding hundreds of pilgrims and is very clairvoyant and a basic Saint on earth...But many will mis his words as they sit and judge who is and who isnt...

[GOCTheophan]

Elder Sophrony from our human vantage point is in a grey area. Theophan.

Elder Sophrony is not in a grey area. He was a heretic and may even have been a Freemason. However HIS elder schemamonk Silouan was.

Theophan.

[Jean-Serge]

Elder Sophrony from our human vantage point is in a grey area. Theophan.

Elder Sophrony is not in a grey area. He was a heretic and may even have been a Freemason. However HIS elder schemamonk Silouan was.

Theophan.

What was Elder Silouan???