A question of ecclesiology (ROCOR)

Discussion about the various True Orthodox Churches around the world including current events. Subforums in other langauges, primarily English on the main forum.


Moderator: Mark Templet

User avatar
GOCTheophan
Member
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon 11 September 2006 7:46 pm
Location: Ireland.
Contact:

Post by GOCTheophan »

Michael Astley wrote:

Many thanks to all for your responses, and especially to those who have given answer to my initial question. That is a great help.

As for the question of The St Edward Brotherhood's Communion practices, I thought it was common knoaledge that ROCOR does not give Communion only to those of us on the Church Calendar. As it was explained to me, our clergy do not concelebrate with clergy on the New Calendar, but we do not hold the lay faithful of New Calendarist jurisdictions responsible for the actions of their hierarchies, and so we permit them to share in the Mysteries in our churches. It is often the case that a New Calendar church may be he only one that a person has ready acess to, and as ROCOR (to my knowledge), does not deny that these churches have grace, then we give Communion to their laity.

Regarding the Act on Canonical Communion, I don't wish to cast doubt on the sincerity of your post in any way, Theophan, and I'm very grateful for your concern in this matter. I'm still confused as to how you came by the Act, as it certainly hasn't been published on the ROCOR website, where the last mention made of it was here, on the 6th of September (in the secular calendar).

Now, in light of the understanding that ROCOR, once in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, will be in communion with the other local churches, is it possible to still not concelebrate with those on the New calendar, or does the state of full communion preclude such an arrangement by definition?

Many thanks.

Michael of course being under the Patriarch of Moscow means being in Communion with the rest of World Orthodoxy. How can you NOT be in Communion with those with whom your Patriarch is in Communion with?

Why would not wish not to be Communion and con-celebrate with Grace-filled Churches of Christ? Pride? Wanting to have your own little pure niche- ROCOR for the elite and the Antiochians for the plebs? Again I am sorry if that sounds harsh but I am trying to figure out where you are coming from.

When I was in the MP I could take "Communion" in each and every World Orthodox Church as I could take the Holy Mysteries in Anastasios's or Iaonnis's parishes now despite what differences we might have because their Bishop recognises my Bishop. Similarly while I have a strong disagreement with Anastasios about the sinfullness of acting ( in which my priest agrees with me) he would be welcome (after going to confession of course) to Commune with us.

No one is being allowed to sit on the fence anymore. When Met Kyprian dies the "Synod in Resistance" will more than likely come down on the side of Orthodoxy as ROCOR has come down on the side of Neo-Stalinism and Ecumenism. Orthodoxy is not something we can play at.

What side are you on?

My advice if you want to save your soul would be either join us or the EP.

Remember what Christ said about those who are neither hot or cold but luke-warm? How he implied that it would be better to be cold rather than luke-warm? Does it not seem that the Most High is spitting ROCOR-L out of his mouth?

Here is where I got the contents of the act from-

http://elmager.livejournal.com/

The english translation I posted is on the Friday 6 th entry.

Theophan.

The Apostate

Post by The Apostate »

Mr.C wrote:

Why does everyone say about rocor "once in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, will be in communion with the other local churches," which I agree with, BUT what is the difference between the Serb Patr. and MP, rocor has always been in communion with world orthodoxy through the Serb. Patr. Therfore ROCOR's comprise on True Orthodoxy is much older than a couple of years, and union with the MP is irrelavent, they already commune with world orthodoxy.

As I mentioned earlier, my knowledge of ecclesiology isn't what it could be, but my understanding is that the difference is that the Serbian patriarchate isn't ROCOR's "mother Church", if you will. ROCOR is currently in communion with Serbia but not actually part of the Serbian church. If my understanding is correct, the situation will be different when communion is restored with Moscow. However, I make no claim to having a broad understanding of the ecclesiological issue, which is why I started this thread - merely to ask for information.

GOCTheophan wrote:

Michael of course being under the Patriarch of Moscow means being in Communion with the rest of World Orthodoxy. How can you NOT be in Communion with those with whom your Patriarch is in Communion with?

Why would not wish not to be Communion and con-celebrate with Grace-filled Churches of Christ? Pride? Wanting to have your own little pure niche- ROCOR for the elite and the Antiochians for the plebs? Again I am sorry if that sounds harsh but I am trying to figure out where you are coming from.

Theophan, where I'm coming from is the position of not knowing about this particular aspect of Orthodox ecclesiology. All I'm doing here is trying to find out. I have been a member of this forum for a few months now and have read many of the threads about "World Orthodoxy" and "Traditional Orthodoxy". However, I specifically started this thread, requesting information, here in the "Orthodoxy Today" section, so that those who knew the answers to my questions could help me without getting into the sort of argument that occurs in the "Controversial Polemics" section.

Please understand that I don't mean to be in any way dismissive of what you are saying and I appreciate your concern, but all I'm doing here is seeking answers to some basic questions about our ecclesiology. That's all.

My question is simply this: Is is it possible (or even precedented?) for churches that remain in communion with each other to not have their clergy concelebrate or is it the case that non-concelebration is incompatible with the concept of being in communion?

If somebody in the know would please shed some light on this for me, I should be very grateful. Many thanks.

User avatar
GOCTheophan
Member
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon 11 September 2006 7:46 pm
Location: Ireland.
Contact:

Post by GOCTheophan »

Michael Astley wrote:
Mr.C wrote:

Why does everyone say about rocor "once in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, will be in communion with the other local churches," which I agree with, BUT what is the difference between the Serb Patr. and MP, rocor has always been in communion with world orthodoxy through the Serb. Patr. Therfore ROCOR's comprise on True Orthodoxy is much older than a couple of years, and union with the MP is irrelavent, they already commune with world orthodoxy.

As I mentioned earlier, my knowledge of ecclesiology isn't what it could be, but my understanding is that the difference is that the Serbian patriarchate isn't ROCOR's "mother Church", if you will. ROCOR is currently in communion with Serbia but not actually part of the Serbian church. If my understanding is correct, the situation will be different when communion is restored with Moscow. However, I make no claim to having a broad understanding of the ecclesiological issue, which is why I started this thread - merely to ask for information.

GOCTheophan wrote:

Michael of course being under the Patriarch of Moscow means being in Communion with the rest of World Orthodoxy. How can you NOT be in Communion with those with whom your Patriarch is in Communion with?

Why would not wish not to be Communion and con-celebrate with Grace-filled Churches of Christ? Pride? Wanting to have your own little pure niche- ROCOR for the elite and the Antiochians for the plebs? Again I am sorry if that sounds harsh but I am trying to figure out where you are coming from.

Theophan, where I'm coming from is the position of not knowing about this particular aspect of Orthodox ecclesiology. All I'm doing here is trying to find out. I have been a member of this forum for a few months now and have read many of the threads about "World Orthodoxy" and "Traditional Orthodoxy". However, I specifically started this thread, requesting information, here in the "Orthodoxy Today" section, so that those who knew the answers to my questions could help me without getting into the sort of argument that occurs in the "Controversial Polemics" section.

Please understand that I don't mean to be in any way dismissive of what you are saying and I appreciate your concern, but all I'm doing here is seeking answers to some basic questions about our ecclesiology. That's all.

My question is simply this: Is is it possible (or even precedented?) for churches that remain in communion with each other to not have their clergy concelebrate or is it the case that non-concelebration is incompatible with the concept of being in communion?

If somebody in the know would please shed some light on this for me, I should be very grateful. Many thanks.

Michael the answer is of course being in full Communion will involve concelebration, and also yes you are a member of the World Council of Churches(because your Archbishop Mark commerates Patriarch Alexis at the Liturgy)- thats not polemnic, that is fact.

The MP also will be seeking it's pound of flesh....

What is polemnic is a member of the WWC and in a KGB-FSB controlled part of it to make matters worse having a quote from Met Vitaly of Blessed Memory (who defrocked archimandrite Alexis and Fr Andrew Philips for their ecumenism and sergianism) on the AntiChrist nature of false ecumenism.

If you want to under Orthodox eccelsiolgy here would be good places to start-

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf ... 32_2190664

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf ... 09_2277176

http://romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20MYSTERY%2 ... 5X9.25.htm

And most important this which explains why you are in grevious error-

http://www.russianorthodoxchurchinexile.com/rescyp.html

Theophan.

User avatar
joasia
Protoposter
Posts: 1858
Joined: Tue 29 June 2004 7:19 pm
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Location: Montreal

Post by joasia »

Fr. Siluan,

Of course when I talk about those breaking away to preserve the true Orthodox faith, I am referring to those who actually have the faith. In our time of confusion, we will have to be able to discern when a break is made in falsehood or in truth. The action may be the same, but the motive quite opposite.

Joanna

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

The Apostate

Post by The Apostate »

Thank you, Theophan.

Perhaps now is the time for me to quietly withdraw from this thread as I have had my questions answered. Thank you for your help.

Post Reply