A question of ecclesiology (ROCOR)

[The Apostate]

I have a question that the denizens of this forum may be able to assist with.

When (and it is looking more like a when then an if) ROCOR restores full Eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, will we be, de facto, in communion with all of the local churches with which Moscow is in communion?

I'll be honest and lay my cards on the table. My concerns here are to do with the Oecumenical Patriarchate more than anything else.

If full communion is resored with the other local churches, will it be the case that there will still be the possibility of abstaining from concelebration until such errors as the ecumenist heresy and calendar dispute are addressed and resolved?

Many thanks.

[GOCTheophan]

I have a question that the denizens of this forum may be able to assist with.

When (and it is looking more like a when then an if) ROCOR restores full Eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, will we be, de facto, in communion with all of the local churches with which Moscow is in communion?

I'll be honest and lay my cards on the table. My concerns here are to do with the Oecumenical Patriarchate more than anything else.

If full communion is resored with the other local churches, will it be the case that there will still be the possibility of abstaining from concelebration until such errors as the ecumenist heresy and calendar dispute are addressed and resolved?

Many thanks.

But Michael Patriarch Alexis in the late 1990s asked Patriarch Palve to clarify his postition on Karlovcene schismatics ( which is how until recently World Orthodoxy saw ROCOR) and he assured his friend that the Serbian Patriarchate held them be schismatic if not heretical and was not in Communion with them- of course New ROCOR in its coup de'etat at the robber council of October 2000 sent what can only be described as a pathetic begging letter to Patriarch Palve ( who prays with Roman Catholics- albeit ones of a "conservitive" mind as opposed to ROCOR in England which takes part in services that involve Koran reading with female clergy) to establish Communion with them and help them patch things up with Moscow.

This is why it would seem to me (and this is ONLY a private opinion) that the bulk of ROCOR fell away from Orthodoxy in 2001 though of course a remanent laboured on under Met Vitaly (memory eternal!). I have spoken to Serbs both in the True and false Churches there which is why I have to strongly to disagree with Anastasios's view on the situation.

The Serbian Patriarchate is just as Sergianist as Moscow and piosoned through and through by false ecumenism and modernism.

So where does your concern about the EP in particular come from? Why get yourself involved with the nasty nationalist rivalaries of World Orthodoxy that you would set "traditionalist Slavs" aganist "silly modernist Greeks" or "Hellenic Light and Love" aganist "Russian darkness or Latinism or whatever" (I could go on like this forever with a thousand oppositions that only really exist in the world Orthodox pride and hate distorted minds)?

Stop taking "Orthodox England" seriously!

Anyway Archbishop Mark commerates the Patriarch of Moscow already at the Divine Liturgy! You are in the MP!

There is a "Matthewite" parish and a "ROCOR-Vitaly" parish in Birmingham which is relatively near you and there is a "Florinite" parish in Guildford. Start going to them if you truelly desire Orthodoxy.

Theophan.

[The Apostate]

Dear GOCTheophan,

Many thanks for your well-thought-out response.

Unfortunately (and meaning no disrespect to you), it still leaves me without an answer to the question I asked. It is simply the case that I don't have a sufficiently-detailed understanding of Orthodox ecclesiology to know whether ROCOR's restoration of communion with Moscow will mean that we will also, by that fact, be in communion with the other local churches with which Moscow is in communion.

I was just asking here as I thought somebody might know and be able to shed some light on it for me.

I appreciate your viewpoint on the state of ROCOR but that isn't what I was looking for in my question.

If anybody could help, I should be grateful.

Many thanks.

[GOCTheophan]

Dear GOCTheophan,

Many thanks for your well-thought-out response.

Unfortunately (and meaning no disrespect to you), it still leaves me without an answer to the question I asked. It is simply the case that I don't have a sufficiently-detailed understanding of Orthodox ecclesiology to know whether ROCOR's restoration of communion with Moscow will mean that we will also, by that fact, be in communion with the other local churches with which Moscow is in communion.

I was just asking here as I thought somebody might know and be able to shed some light on it for me.

I appreciate your viewpoint on the state of ROCOR but that isn't what I was looking for in my question.

If anybody could help, I should be grateful.

Many thanks.

Well my point was more about the Offical Serbian Church which you are in Communion with, however since you are Offically in Communion with it and it seems that it will be a short while yet before you are in Communion with Moscow that maybe you wont be but I would strongly suppose that that will not be the case. Indeed the contents of the ACT make clear that this is not just an entering into Communion situation but the take over of ROCOR by the MP. In the present circumstances I doubt that any other situation is possible.

You know that the St Edward's Brotherhood give Communion to Greek New Calendarists? That the Serbian Patriarchate gives Communion to Roman Catholics and Monophysites? So what exactly is the big deal about ROCOR offically being in Communion with the EP to you? Please forgive me if that sounds sarcastic I am just trying to figure out where you stand...

There might indeed be a nationalist schism between Constaninople and Moscow in the future- however in whatever way it will be dressed up it will have nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

Theophan.

[The Apostate]

Many thanks, Theophan.

I had been under the impression that the idea was for ROCOR to submit to Moscow and then be granted autonomy by the same. From what you have said, it seems as though you have access to the Act already, although as I understand it, it is still under deliberation by the joint commission and Sobors of both jurisdictions. How have you come by it? (Or have I misunderstood?)

My allusion to the Oecumenical Patriarchate was simply due to particular concerns of mine. As it isn't directly relevant to the ecclesiological question, I was perhaps ill-advised to mention it.

Thanks again.

[ioannis]

Michael Astley,

If I may anser your original question, beyond what has already been said...

If you believe in One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, then you will be as much in communion with the EP, as the MP, and for that matter the Monophysites, ect. You will be everything they are, since you accept their church.

[joasia]

The right choice for the ROCOR bishops to make is to stay away from communion with the MP. If they choose to unite with the MP, then they are uniting with the WCC. Any bishop or priest, who disagrees with this union will have to break away. They will be preserving the True Church of Christ.

Up until now, I don't know of any bishops or priests that are commemorating Alexei. Once they do this, the decision to refuse commemoration will have to be made and that's when divisions will be made. Everything that ecumenism stands for is wrong...therefore, anyone who has a solid understanding of Orthodoxy that has been defended by the holy fathers and the blood of the martyrs will know what choice to make.

Those bishops and priests who choose to join with the MP will not be ROCOR anymore. They will forfeit that title as it was meant for the preservation of Orthodoxy against the communist takeover of the Russian Church and any false belief of Orthodoxy. They will have to bow down to the MP Patriarchate.

Autonomy is not an option with this union. Total submission is the goal. Autonomy means that ROCOR will give commemoration to their own Metropolitan, but if they choose to finalize the union with the MP, then they are not independent anymore; they have to commemorate the Patriarch. This is the same issue occuring with the EP and the papists.

Joanna