GOA now tonsuring women as clergy?

[George Australia]

Joasia,
You can't just say that "I will follow the Fathers and not astronomers", because the Fathers decreed that we need to "follow the astronomers" to calculate Pascha. If we don't know when the Vernal Equinox is, we cannot calculate Pascha as the Fathers decreed in the First Ecumenical Council. And as it stands, we no longer do so on many years.

[George Australia]

The Julian calendar was upheld since Julius Ceasar.

FALSE. The Julian Calendar intoduced by Julius Ceasar originally contained another error in that they misunderstood the Leap Year algorithm as including the the 1st and 4th year of the Leap Year cycle, that is, they were counting 2 years out of every 4 years as Leap Years instead of just one. This was not picked up for 36 years, and was not corrected until AD 12. So Our Lord was born and lived for 12 years under one form of the Julian Calendar (which was erroneous) and Died and Rose under a revised form of the Julian Calendar which removed the extra accrued Leap Days and corrected the Leap Years to every 4th year....And does that sound familiar? The New Calendar simply sought to do exactly the same thing, that is, remove the erroneously accrued Leap Days and correct the calculation of Leap Years in the future. So Our Lord was an "Old, Old" Calendarist Who became a "New, Old" Calendarist! Unfortunately, unlike in Our Lord's time, people just refuse to understand the problem, so the full revision of the Julian Calendar had to be aborted and a partial revision made, possibly in the hope that future generations will understand the problem with our calendar.

The Apostles and holy fathers followed it;

FALSE...on two counts. Firstly, there were many different Calendars in use in the Early Church. And secondly, the Calendar we currently follow is not the Julian Calendar adopted in the First Ecumenical Council, because we don't celebrate Pascha on the day which the Holy Fathers decreed it should be observed.

they lived and died by it until the 19th century when a certain pope of Rome, in sorry memory, decided to push it ahead 10 days.

FALSE, on 2 counts. Firstly, by the 16th century, the Julian Calendar had pushed itself forward 10 days because of the error it contains, and has since pushed itself forward another 3 days. You can see this clearly in the Equinox. The Spring Equinox originally took place on March 21st on the Julian Calendar, and it now takes place on March 8th, in other words, the Julian Calendar thinks the Earth is 13 days further back in it's orbit around the Sun than it actually is. Secondly Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian Calendar in the 16th century (not the 19th).
And until you can understand that we are not talking about the Gregorian Calendar, but the error in the Julian, you won't get anywhere in your arguments. No one is advocating adopting the Gregorian Calendar. What we need to do is correct the errors in the Julian Calendar. I don't understand why it's so hard to see the problem when the Julian date of March 21st is no longer the Vernal Equinox, but is in fact nearly 2 weeks after the Vernal Equinox. And yet we still insist on calling March 21st "the Vernal Equinox".

The the patriarch of istambul decides to follow along in order to get closer to the western rite and farther away from the traditions of the holy fathers.

FALSE. He was trying to bring the Calendar of the Church into line with the decrees of the First Ecumenical Council. Unfortunately, because some didn't (and still don't) understand why the Julian Calendar needs correcting, they saw it as "innovation". No one is further from the Fathers and Holy Tradition than we are in the observance of Pascha until we fully revise the Julian Calendar. It probably wont be until we are celebrating Pascha in the heat of Summer or the Dead of Winter that people will understand that something has gone wrong with the way we were calculating time. After AD 2698, we will never celebrate Pascha on the Sunday following the first Spring Full Moon, and we will have started celebrating it on the Sunday after the third Spring Full Moon, and as time progresses, we will begin celebrating Pascha some years on the Sunday after the first Summer Full Moon, and so on, until you guys in the Northern Hemisphere will be celebrating Pascha by building snowmen in Winter on the civil date of December 25th..........and all because we want to cling to "tradition". The Julian Calendar contains an error, and until we correct it, it will carry us further and further away from the Holy Tradition and the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils. By not agreeing to fully revise the Calendar, we have doomed our children and our children's children to this fate, and I pray God will not call us to account for it.

[尼古拉前执事]

Calling the New Calendar a "Revised Julian" because it is the Gregorian with the Julian paschalion attached to it is like calling a wolf in sheep's clothing a revised sheep. The "Revised Gregorian" is more accurate.

Secondy, you can say the calendar was changed for astonomical reasons until the cows come home, but that eill never make it fact. Pascha is still figured by the Julian Equinox except in the Church of Finland which uses the full Gregorian Calendar. Again George I ask you what you think of them doing this for the sake of being state recognized and tax-free?

If you read what the EP said on why he was changing the calendar, it was to make it easier to unite with what he called the rest of the Christian Church n(i.e. the Roman Catholics and Protestants). It was done for the sake of Ecumenism due to the EP's belief in the brand theory.

There is no reason to change the calendar for the true reason it was changed, nor for astronomical reasons since it is the Ecclesiastical Calendar and as I have said before, even the Hindusm, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims all keep different calendars than the worldly secular one of the day.

The New Calendar removes any possibility on a Kyriopascha and as I have said many times it often removes the Apostles Fast or makes it be calculated to be a negative number. It is not just a simple change of 13 days. It does, in fact change the menaion majorly, not to mention how in the future this "new Calendar" will make Pascha and the Nativity fall on the same day!

[George Australia]

Calling the New Calendar a "Revised Julian" because it is the Gregorian with the Julian paschalion attached to it is like calling a wolf in sheep's clothing a revised sheep. The "Revised Gregorian" is more accurate.

So then what was the revised Julian Calendar in Our Lord's time? (See previous posts in this thread). The Julian Calendar was revised twelve years after the incarnation of Our Lord in History, and days had to be dropped from it, and the Leap Year calculation corrected; was this also an "innovation"?
Are you seriously defining the "Gregorian Calendar" as any calendar which correctly measures the Siderial Year?

Secondy, you can say the calendar was changed for astonomical reasons until the cows come home, but that eill never make it fact.

I have presented more facts here about the reasons for the attempt to correct the calendar than you or anyone ever has to support their claim that the motive was purely "Ecumenism". Had that been the case, then why would Patriarch Meletios suggest a revision of the Julian Paschalion which would in fact, not only take the actual Spring Equinox into account, but also include the "Jewish Passover Rule" (which the Gregorian Calendar does not)? Why introduce a rule that meant your Paschalion would not coincide with the Gregorian if Ecumenism was the real motive?

Pascha is still figured by the Julian Equinox except in the Church of Finland which uses the full Gregorian Calendar. Again George I ask you what you think of them doing this for the sake of being state recognized and tax-free?

How do you feel about the fact that, on most years, the Churches of Finland and Estonia actually celebrate the Pascha in accordance with the decree of the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council, whereas at present you and I only do so less than 60% of the time, and this will decrease in the future until we never do so after AD 2686?

There is no reason to change the calendar for the true reason it was changed, nor for astronomical reasons since it is the Ecclesiastical Calendar and as I have said before, even the Hindusm, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims all keep different calendars than the worldly secular one of the day.

So, now we are to follow the example of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims? And there is "no reason to change the Calendar for astronomical reasons", even though the Fathers decreed that Pascha should be determined by two astronomical events, and we no longer can do so because our Calendar contains a cumilative error in calculation?

The New Calendar removes any possibility on a Kyriopascha and as I have said many times it often removes the Apostles Fast or makes it be calculated to be a negative number. It is not just a simple change of 13 days. It does, in fact change the menaion majorly, not to mention how in the future this "new Calendar" will make Pascha and the Nativity fall on the same day!

The reason the New Calendar does not contain the possibility of a Kyriopascha is because the Churches who resisted it stopped it's full introduction (as I explained earlier). The New Calendar is not the full revision of the Julian which was originally hoped for, and therefore, the revisied Paschalion could not be adopted. And you seem to forget that with the current Julian calculation of Pascha, if we (the New Calendarists) are celebrating Pascha on the civil date of December 25th, then so will you be (as I also explained earlier). You will be building snowmen for Pascha in the Northern Hemisphere whether you are New or Old Calendarist. The only way to correct this and celebrate Pascha when we should is by fully revising the Julian Paschalion and Menaion and every Orthodox Church adopting the revised version.

[尼古拉前执事]

Since we already have an in depth thread on the issue of "New Calendarism" that answer the questions raised by the New Calendarists, I am going to ask that all posts on the issue of the Calendar henceforth be posted exclusively to the following thread only:

http://www.EuphrosynosCafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

I will move the posts in this thread to that thread later today or this week, as time permits.

I ask that anyone making new posts in that thread read all of the previous posts first so we can prevent repeating the same issues over and over again as we have in this thread.

Thank you in advance.

[spiridon]

I am not comparing Orthodox to this story, its a story about a man who was deceived by a good going man with "hide and go seek" words "
in 2006 a man was gonna enter the BMW car show that hadnt been to his city ever, the car show makes its way around the world and has been for over 30 years , and it was coming to his city and 1 day away so he started washing up his car and waxing it quite well, he struggled and sweated for many years to preserve this car for the purpose of this north american show that would one day come to his ft. door step, this particular vehicle was somewhat modern but was starting to be considered a classic although it was realeased in 1955, so he shined the bmw insignia on the wheels, and the bmw button on the hood which they all have, and even checked the oil of the car and it was a half a quart low on oil, so he pulled out a quart of oil(labeled BMW and from the dealership) and then he moved on to the inside and was cleaning the factory american made cassette player, and eventually was all done, Boy he was happy and boasted a smile from california to new york, but something was missing, see this man was always told that this V-6 engine was one of the best engines out- and yet it sounded different then the other ones, never the less he drove the car to the epicenter of the show.
people watched him in amazement as if his car was the most beautiful car there, but then he noticed that the kids were laughing at him, he wondered " what has this world come to ,when kids will even mock you for a "beautiful" car". never the less he approached the judge who signs up the cars for the show, and before he even started signing the application the judge says STOP - your car is an imposter, it looks good and runs great But it isnt the Real thing its a mockery and a scandal- how long did you think you could fool people? the owner answers "when I bought the car from a nice honest and church going man he exclaimed " it was one of the finest well kept and REVISED BMW TYPE of car and all the parts are original from somewhere" ( from somewhere exclaimed the judge?)
the car show judge jumped up and said, in 1955 there wasnt cassette players for cars(and especially american made for a german car), Bmw never made a v-6 engine, your car is full of added on insignia`s and badges from 1990 year models , and the only thing BMW and original about your car is the 1979 6 series wheels, you have been lied to and you will not be allowed past these gates, you should also know that many people saw your car and were tricked and you also gave them hope that they too could some day turn a True piece of work into a mockery for nothing else but CUTTING CORNERS and high Prideing yourself.
the moral of the story is this, IT IS WHAT IT IS, and it AINT what it AINT. the new calendar is pointless and been put here to cause confusion and scandal , between me and you...
I choose the old calendar and when i die remember me according as we remember the Holy Fathers of the church according to the patristic Calendar

[George Australia]

I am not comparing Orthodox to this story, its a story about a man who was deceived by a good going man with "hide and go seek" words "
in 2006 a man was gonna enter the BMW car show that hadnt been to his city ever, the car show makes its way around the world and has been for over 30 years , and it was coming to his city and 1 day away so he started washing up his car and waxing it quite well, he struggled and sweated for many years to preserve this car for the purpose of this north american show that would one day come to his ft. door step, this particular vehicle was somewhat modern but was starting to be considered a classic although it was realeased in 1955, so he shined the bmw insignia on the wheels, and the bmw button on the hood which they all have, and even checked the oil of the car and it was a half a quart low on oil, so he pulled out a quart of oil(labeled BMW and from the dealership) and then he moved on to the inside and was cleaning the factory american made cassette player, and eventually was all done, Boy he was happy and boasted a smile from california to new york, but something was missing, see this man was always told that this V-6 engine was one of the best engines out- and yet it sounded different then the other ones, never the less he drove the car to the epicenter of the show.
people watched him in amazement as if his car was the most beautiful car there, but then he noticed that the kids were laughing at him, he wondered " what has this world come to ,when kids will even mock you for a "beautiful" car". never the less he approached the judge who signs up the cars for the show, and before he even started signing the application the judge says STOP - your car is an imposter, it looks good and runs great But it isnt the Real thing its a mockery and a scandal- how long did you think you could fool people? the owner answers "when I bought the car from a nice honest and church going man he exclaimed " it was one of the finest well kept and REVISED BMW TYPE of car and all the parts are original from somewhere" ( from somewhere exclaimed the judge?)
the car show judge jumped up and said, in 1955 there wasnt cassette players for cars(and especially american made for a german car), Bmw never made a v-6 engine, your car is full of added on insignia`s and badges from 1990 year models , and the only thing BMW and original about your car is the 1979 6 series wheels, you have been lied to and you will not be allowed past these gates, you should also know that many people saw your car and were tricked and you also gave them hope that they too could some day turn a True piece of work into a mockery for nothing else but CUTTING CORNERS and high Prideing yourself.
the moral of the story is this, IT IS WHAT IT IS, and it AINT what it AINT. the new calendar is pointless and been put here to cause confusion and scandal , between me and you...
I choose the old calendar and when i die remember me according as we remember the Holy Fathers of the church according to the patristic Calendar

Spiridon,
In your analogy, the current BMW models would be the second and third model. The First model was noted to have a problem with the speedometer in that it says "40 mph" when in fact the car is travelling "30 mph". In the Second model (which becomes "Car of the Year" for AD 12), this is corrected, but only insofar as the Speedometer shows "40mph" when the car is travelling 35mph. And not only this, but as the BMW gets older, the speedometer goes faster, so that after ten years, the speedometer show 60mph when the car is travelling 40mph. This error is eventually noted when people realise that their GPS is overshooting towns because they think they have arrived when they are still 5 miles out of town, and a third model is suggested to correct the error completely, but some car enthusiasts cry out that this would be "tampering with the classics", and no matter how much the advocates point out that the speedometer is giving misleading information which will eventually land the drivers in trouble because they will think that they have arrived in a town 40 miles away when in fact they are now 20 miles out of town, the car enthusiasts fail to see the problem and refuse to accept the revised speedometer. In the end, a compromise is reached in that whenever two or more BMWs are travelling toward the same destination of the BMW International Conference, their speedometers switch to the same erroneous differential, so that everyone arrives at the same time, however, when they leave the Conference, the newer models travel at the correct speed while the older models overshoot their targets because they think they are travelling faster than they actually are.
The advocates of the new model keep saying "But it's still a BMW", but the car enthusiasts keep saying "No, this new model is some creation of another car firm, it is a Honda, not a BMW, because it's speedometer reads correctly except when on the way to the International BMW Conference when it shows the wrong speed like a proper BMW should." The advocates of the new model point out that, because of the Spedometer error, the old model's GPS thinks it has arrived at a destination, when in fact it is still 5 miles out of town. And the old model enthusiasts reply "No problem. If we are heading to Albany, and stop 5 miles out of town, we will just call wherever we have stopped "Albany" and voila, we are in Albany." And when the new model advocates point out that as old model gets older it will stop further and further out of town until it has stopped at every point around the globe (including the middle of the ocean), and each point along this line will come to be called "Albany", the old model enthusiasts reply "well, at least we didn't tamper with the classics".....And yet they seem to forget that their BMW model is actually the second model, because the first model was in fact revised for the same reason.....