joasia wrote:I still feel it necessary to wall myself off from the EP and MP.
And I respect your right to make this choice, whether it is an informed choice or not, you still have the right to make it. But this is completely seperate to the issue you raise next:
joasia wrote:When do we know when the Holy Spirit has withdrawn from the Church of Constantinople?
Why does this question require an answer? If you have walled off from the Ecumenical Patriarchate it is not because you consider it "devoid of Grace". The only reason to "wall off" is to seperate yourself from something which is clearly and unequivocally an heresy in the Church. The question of whether or not it still has Grace is immaterial. You have not "walled off" because the EP is devoid of Grace, but because you believe it is clearly, publically and unquestionably holding and teaching a heresy, and you have undeniable proof of this. I personally have no proof that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is holding and teaching the heresy of Ecumenism. For something to be an heresy, it must be a doctrine, and I see no doctrine that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has taught which is heretical. Praxis is not doctrine. For example, if someone refuses to venerate an Icon of Fr. Seraphim Rose, that does not make them an "Iconoclast". It may simply mean that the person does not consider Fr. Seraphim Rose to be "Venerable" since the Church has not Glorified him yet. The person's praxis looks like the heresy of Iconoclasm, yet it cannot be deduced from his praxis that the person holds and teaches the heretical doctrine of Iconoclasm. In the same way, until the Church clearly teaches the doctrine that all christian denominations form branches of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, then I cannot accuse it of heresy on the basis of the praxis of some of it's Bishops and Priests. And in fact, the Church has made clear statements to the opposite effect (for example, the Thessaloniki Communique" in which the Orthodox delegates to the WCC not only clearly stated that they will not budge on the issue of the Ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church, that she, and she alone is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but also forbad the Orthodox delegates from attending any further joint worship in the WCC.)
joasia wrote:Patriarch Bartholowmew allows con-celebrations with papists. He is openly showing his acceptance of union with them; they are already concelebrating with those who do not "worship the same God" that we do.
"Concelebration" means that two or more priests or bishops offer the Eucharist together. Patriarch Bartholemew has never done this, nor has he ever allowed his clergy to do this.
joasia wrote:I know of a priest who allows a papist priest con-celebrate in the Holy Altar with him, on Pascha. He says that it is a time of great joy and that it's an act of brotherly love.
Again, are they "concelebrating" or is the heterodox priest merely present?
joasia wrote:So when is the line drawn and who has the authority to draw it?
The only authority which can draw the line is a pan-Orthodox Synod. This does not mean that we cannot withdraw from Bishops who we consider to be clearly teaching an heresy condemned by the Fathers. But we cannot depose him. Not even a Patriarch has the authority to do that. Only a Synod has this authority. One of the greatest assets the Orthodox Church has is it's Concilliar nature. Are we going to descend into a laissez-faire group where anyone can depose anyone and declare anyone devoid of Grace or anathema? By all means, follow your conscience, but do not presume to anathemise or depose or excommunicate anyone before a Church Synod has.
joasia wrote:This is the reason why I wonder about the presence of Grace with the EP.
And I hope that I have shown you that this kind of idle curiosity is harmful, and can only lead to schisms. Wait until the Church makes her pronouncement. As I said, the presence or not of Grace in the EP is not the reason you should wall off from it if that is your choice. You don't need this question answered to make your decision.
George
