humility and self justification

[joasia]

Ok. Gotta crack my knuckles for this one....

Wrong. It is a sin against God to "live a life of suffering". It is a rejection of all the wonderful and beautiful things he has provided to us in this life.

Wrong? That's pretty definite. Ok. I'll bite. Whose law is this? Is it your own personal view or some spiritual euphoriatic state of mind of some kind of zen thing or other? If it's your own view, then you have no card to play, because my existence isn't based on your personal views. Prove to me that your statement is the ultimate truth of our existence. Because I want to know what the truth of my existence is. Why do I exist? I have my answer, but I want to hear your "logical" explanation.

Since you mention God...we have to first establish what your view of God is. Is it the God of the Jews and the God of the Holy Trinity, in Christianity? If not, then we're going to need a common denominator in order to make sense of our debate. This could take awhile, but I foresee many interesting discussions amongst all of us.

Forgive me for asking you to repeat yourself...but, this is the most interesting post I've dealt with for a long time. And I want to exercise my Orthodox philosphy...I'm kind of out of shape...with debates.

Babies are naturally happy. The lost innocence of this joy is something that is learned. This is what is evil.

Babies are babies. They cannot be compared to the reality of a mature conscience. By the way, I've seen some babies that feel miserable...they're always cranky. So they know how it feels to be unhappy, but they can't understand why. At least when we come to see how God works in our lives and believe that He is all good and that we have to go through some spiritual hardships, because He deems it necessary...then the hardships make sense. These hardships are of this world and Jesus Christ was the ultimate example of it. He showed us that the hardships are not the important things of our lives. These hardships are of this world of decay. But, when we transcend beyond this world and focus on the spiritual life, then we are drawn closer to God..which, BTW, is the ultimate and eternal happiness that our souls seek.

..if you are saying that this is what is required in order to reach theosis,

And how do you perceive to reach theosis?

I certainly do have the right. And since I am expressing my opinion and not hiding behind "scripture" or the teachings of another "spiritual guide", then I'm not using authority.

Nobody has the right to tell somebody what to do in their spiritual life. I can't tell you and you don't have to listen to what I say. What? Even Scripture? That is the Christian blueprint. And the teachings of "spiritual guides"...is not of their own will...they are following the teachings of Christ. What they say is what is taught by Christ and passed down from the Apostles. So if you're going to reject the Holy Scriptures and the Apostles...we'll need to find a common denominator for this too.

Which brings me back to my original question...who are you referring to when you mention God, because you seem to have some kind of belief that there is a God. Maybe we should start there.

God: Lesson 101

[joasia]

Atlanta wrote:

How can a person be Orthodox and be what I am?

What are you? Unless you are a demon in human form, then you obviously cannot be anywhere close to God; you are finished. But, I think you are human, so read about Sts. Cyprian and Justina. If he got out...so can you.

[Olympiada]

Atlanta wrote:

How can a person be Orthodox and be what I am?

I did not write that!

What are you? Unless you are a demon in human form, then you obviously cannot be anywhere close to God; you are finished. But, I think you are human, so read about Sts. Cyprian and Justina. If he got out...so can you.

Read about St Justina? I named my daughter after her. Why don't you stop while you can? You are never going to win.
:ohvey:

[joasia]

How can a person be Orthodox and be what I am?

I did not write that!

Well, look back to your previous post. Who wrote it then?

Read about St Justina? I named my daughter after her. Why don't you stop while you can? You are never going to win.

Yeah, sure. like I eve can trust what you are. So tell me...what is the story about Sts. Cyprian and Justina?

[Olympiada]

How can a person be Orthodox and be what I am?

I did not write that!

Well, look back to your previous post. Who wrote it then?

It was a rhetorical question.

Read about St Justina? I named my daughter after her. Why don't you stop while you can? You are never going to win.

Yeah, sure. like I eve can trust what you are. So tell me...what is the story about Sts. Cyprian and Justina?

Well I am not a man, I can tell you that much. You, however, write like a man, and I can not trust you. I already asked do you care about me? No? Then stop writing to me. If you want to find the story, look it up yourself. This correspondence is a waste of my time. Don't write back. Bye!

[TomS]

Ok. Gotta crack my knuckles for this one....

Wow. You are full of questions. And it would take me way too long to try to explain my convoluted beliefs. So I will summarize.

Of course it is all my opinion.

Since you mention God...we have to first establish what your view of God is. Is it the God of the Jews and the God of the Holy Trinity, in Christianity?

Quoting John Lennon: God is a concept. It is something we created in order to try to explain the unexplainable.

And how do you perceive to reach theosis?

By physical death. That is the only way.

Nobody has the right to tell somebody what to do in their spiritual life.

Sure they do. It is up to the individual to accept or reject that advice.

Which brings me back to my original question...who are you referring to when you mention God, because you seem to have some kind of belief that there is a God. Maybe we should start there.

I have no idea who I am referring to. Anyway, I am a deist. We are spiritual beings plopped down here and it is up to us to find our way. It is up to each individual to find his own heaven or hell. God has no direct interaction with us at all. He is deaf to our pleas.

It's all up to us. We are alone.

[Zeno]

I know this is an old thread, but I'm going to offer some thoughts anyway...

Olympiada,

One member has asked me to keep writing here, so I am writing this for that person.
A priest wrote to me back in May that "humility and self justification go together like fire and water" from the Philokalia. He thought I was familiar with this passage, I am not, I do not own a copy of the Philokalia.

I don't pretend any familiarity with the specific contents of the Philokalia, so I couldn't tell you where you'd find this passage or something like it. However, it is a sentiment I've heard many times over from different spiritual writers, Priests, and Orthodox laymen with a deep interest in spiritual matters.

I'm sure you hear much of humility, and it's importance for an Orthodox Christian. However, it's actually very hard to come by. The best we can generally do is try to be humble, as genuine humility isn't self conscious. I'm sure we've all had our run ins (or been guilty of it ourselves) with "forced humility", which really is more often than not a species of pride...the kind of "humbler than thou" posture which we're all easy prey too.

As for self justification, it certainly is the enemy of humility. But then again, it too has clever ways of remaining a part of our character, even if we'd like to think we're not guilty of it. We should seek to be justified by God - He's the one Who will judge us, so it's His decision on just who and what we really are that will matter. And a large part of that justification on His part, will be through mercy - overlooking the evil we've done. And that is something others are incapable of extending to us in any way that matters, at least beyond this short life of ours. If a man forgives you, it is good for him...but is it necessarily good for you? In reality, it's indifferent. If you've repented of a wrong you did against him, it adds nothing to this. OTOH, it is possible to have people think well of you simply because you've fooled them one way or another. In that case, a man's forgiveness or good appraisal of you is worth nothing to you - if anything, it can be a "nail in the coffin" of delusion.

The Almighty however, is never fooled. Pretense will get you nowhere with Him - He see's right through it. If there is some mitigating factor which is worth considering in one's "case", the Lord knows it; He doesn't need us to remind Him. If anything, we should flee such attempts like the plague; not because they never objectively exist, but simply because they too easily become sorry attempts on our part to convince ourselves that persisting in some form of evil is in some wise excusable. Such self justification is a key ingredient in becoming deluded - that is to say, bluntly, believing our own lies. When one goes too far down that road, they are (barring a tremendous grace - a divine "wake up call" perhaps) lost.

Also because of all the trouble I have been experiencing on the internet I am thinking about returning to my pre-Orthodox name. What do you all think? I am tired of trying to be Orthodox. It just is not working. I don't even know how to sign my name anymore.

If one is going to be a Christian, they must be such because it is important to them to stay near their Lord. They cannot be such because it will make them more friends, or will gain the approval of others. Such motives are not only unworthy, but if they're heartfelt, will spiritually retard the individual, no matter how many vigils they attend, how much spiritual reading they do, or how "Godly" others perceive them to be. It'll be a farce, and the Lord Whose approval actually is the only approval that matters, will see right through it. So, what good is it?

Love the Lord, strive to do His will in your station in life, and seek to let the opinions of others about you fall on deadened ears - whether what they say be good, or bad; greet it with a smile, but appraise it for what it is - their opinion (and as such, of very limited worth.)

As for spiritual fathers - they've been put before us for guidance, but what we will get from them is really up to us. If we choose to dwell on their failings (and they will certainly be there, even if they genuinely are sanctified in the depths of their being) and feel slighted by them, then we'll get very little. For good or bad, for better or worse, they (like everyone else in their own way) are an opportunity for salvation...or damnation. Which of the two will be, interestingly enough, entirely up to us.

TomS wrote,

However, you can be meek and humble without being a doormat.

I can certainly agree with this, but in a qualified way. The only qualification being, that one does not confuse what is needful and just with whatever our whims happen to be at the moment.

With that said, sometimes being "humble" does mean asserting one's self when the circumstances call for it, most especially when doing such is uncomfortable and will cost us something. That's actually a pretty good test, to discern if what one is doing is "seeking justice" or simply some form (however "minor") of narcisism/"self entitlement". For example, if one chooses to be assertive and contradict evil words (even though it'll cause others to think badly of you for "rocking the boat"), and will really gain little if anything for ourselves, then it's probably the right thing to do. Such discernment is difficult at times however, which is why often it is good to have someone else we can trust act as our objectivity for us - hence the value of a spiritual father. And while it is a great gift to have a spiritual father (or mother!) who is very spiritually advanced and has obviously "drank deeply" from the well of grace, it's a mistake to believe that having anything but a "living saint" for a spiritual guide is pointless. Sometimes simply having someone with some basic Christian standards but who is not as deeply/selfishly interested in our own goings on is all we need when trying to work our way through personal problems (and just the same, these same persons will in turn need their own "voice of objectivity".)