Evolution and an Orthodox Patristic understanding of Genesis

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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What do you believe vis a vis Creationism vs. Darwinism?

I believe in creationism like the Holy Fathers and Bible teach

20
83%

I believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and think the Church Fathers were wrong

2
8%

I am not sure yet, I need to read more Patristics and scientific theories

2
8%
 
Total votes: 24

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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

it boggles my mind that Orthodox Christians would believe in evolution. and although you say "creationism" is a western concept, it seems to me that the Patristic understanding of Genesis is very much the same. Fr. Seraphim's book on the issue is amazing.

i have actually argued this issue several times over at www.christianforums.com even in the Orthodox forum. its sad that such modernism has indeed come into the Church. When ppl look to atheistic scientists and "scholars" before Chrysostom to understand Genesis then we've got big problems.

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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

it also really irritates me when people try to find Patristic quotes that supposedly support evolution. thats quite the anachronism, to throw a theory back on people from 1500 yrs before it came about.

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尼古拉前执事
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

jckstraw72 wrote:

it boggles my mind that Orthodox Christians would believe in evolution. and although you say "creationism" is a western concept, it seems to me that the Patristic understanding of Genesis is very much the same. Fr. Seraphim's book on the issue is amazing.

i have actually argued this issue several times over at www.christianforums.com even in the Orthodox forum. its sad that such modernism has indeed come into the Church. When ppl look to atheistic scientists and "scholars" before Chrysostom to understand Genesis then we've got big problems.

Bravo! I could have not said it better.

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Zeno
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Post by Zeno »

All scientific knowledge is to some degree conditional and always open to revision. Indeed, for something to be demonstrated in a "scientific" way, the test has to be open to falsification. In other words, that which cannot be falsified, is outside of the realm of scientific inquiry. The error many make, sadly, is they think that because something cannot (by it's nature) be "scientifically demonstrated", that it must be untrue. Philosophically sound scientists know this. Sadly, there are many scientists who like to play philosopher-theologian on the side, without actually having the qualifications to do such - hence the mischief of what can be called "scientism"... basically rabid materialism/empricism.

OTOH, there is the other extreme, and this is the tendency of religious believers (at least in this present age) - and this is to confuse the limits of revelation (as they've come to understand it) and the scientific method, or worse yet, to take a reactionary posture toward anything scientists may uncover which does not immediately mesh with their preconceptions about the mechanics of the natural world and what they believe their religious tradition says about that world.

I don't have a deep investment in the various versions of evolutionary theory which have come along (I would say the same of pretty much anything else in the realm of the physical sciences). At the same time though, I don't think it's prudent to be rashly dismissive either.

To point to the fact that the ancient Fathers did not speak of "evolution" as it's now presented is for the most part irrelevent - for unless one is positing that the Fathers received some sort of explicit revelation from the Lord on this topic, they were in this respect no different than us - simply men of their times. They did nothing else but interpret the science of their own day through the lense of the inherited Christian tradition, doing the best they could with what was available; which is fundamentally no different than what we're called to do today. There is nothing chaste (however conditional) scientific inquiry can tell us which is going to undermine the Gospel - what it may do, however, is show just how small our understanding of the intricacy of Divine Providence may have been.

I find it interesting that many are fond of academically saying that in Orthodoxy (as opposed to other Christian confessions) "the age of the Fathers has never ended, and can never end so long as the Church exists", yet in the next breath will basically go ahead and contradict that affirmation by heavily implying there is nothing worth knowing that hadn't occured to anyone past say, medieval Byzantium.

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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

the problem is not in a scientific discovery shedding new light on something, the problem is in actually overthrowing the Patristic understanding of Genesis. If you want to believe it has symbolism and allegory thats fine (and it does), but that cannot include getting rid of the literal meaning that the Fathers greatly expounded upon. We are the Church of the Fathers.

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Zeno
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Post by Zeno »

jckstraw72 wrote:

the problem is not in a scientific discovery shedding new light on something, the problem is in actually overthrowing the Patristic understanding of Genesis. If you want to believe it has symbolism and allegory thats fine (and it does), but that cannot include getting rid of the literal meaning that the Fathers greatly expounded upon. We are the Church of the Fathers.

This all sounds fine and good - but just what is it in the (ancient) Patristic understanding that you think would be undermined by accepting (as plausable) certain basic evolutionary premises? I'm willing to bet it would only be those things in their own understanding which they could not claim to have received by "the voice of Heaven" (either from their own experience or that of their own fathers), but that understanding which was a synthesis of contemporary secular philosophies of nature and their own exegesis of the received Biblical text. In other words, one would be revising what they spoke as men.

To put forward the idea that simply because something was accepted by many Fathers (most especially when it lies outside of the realm of the Gospel - ex. understanding of the mechanics of the natural world) that it must be true is simply untenable, since you'll find any number of views taken for granted by large bodies amongst the Fathers in various ages which are in conflict - including on purely religious matters! For example, "millenialism" in some form was widely accepted by many second century Fathers, including some whose spiritual patrimony was quite close to the Apostles (ex. the various prolific "Johanine" second century Fathers expressed millenialist views). Up until quite recently, practically all of the Slavic Orthodox manuals on religion expressed views on the validity of heterodox sacraments which are hard to differentiate from what one would find in a Roman Catholic catechism. Now, if we're able to approach these religious views critically, how on earth can we not take a similarly careful (and if need be, critical) view of what say, St.Basil the Great wrote on this topic?

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Post by jckstraw72 »

i dont have the time right now to go into all the problems i see with evolution but here is a good website to check out http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/english.html
especially read the chapters from Fr. Seraphim's book which quotes liberally from the Fathers.

In Christ,

Jesse

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