DECEPTION by Tatiana Senina

[Methodius]

That's a cop out. What if telling someone that they have been anathematized will only cause more harm?

While not pointing out their error will definitely do them harm, no?

And to be quite honest, you aren't a doctor, and you've had little experience with the medicine yourself, so what are you doing trying to diagnose other people, as though you can discern what therapy they need? What am I doing trying to do the same thing?

Is not truth always the way to go? Can we do anything but speak truth and leave the doctoring to physicians?

There is none good, no, not one.

???

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Paradosis,

Anyone who is scandalized by the disorganization of Orthodoxy is likely not familiar with Church history, or has some means of keeping history in a box as if something has or should change. A clean, neat, organized Church is a utopia which never existed, ever.

How many of these people know that St. Ignatius signed the deposition papers of St. Photius with the Lords Blood from the Holy Chalice!!? What a fanatic "extreme ecclesiological" person he was, and a Saint DESPITE this. And St. Photius, he anthematized the entire Western Church because of the Filioque, again, what fanatic "extreme ecclesiology"; three little words and hundreds of thousands of people were cut off from the Church - and he is a Saint, largley BECAUSE of this.

My answer to anyone who is troubled by the disorganization of Orthodoxy, is that Orthodoxy, in the world, has never been anything but disorganized; Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, that is not some abstract idea. And in the time of Jesus' life on Earth, He did not have a neat and clean organizational structure, in fact, of His own hand picked disciples, He was betrayed to death, denied, questioned, and they often argued right in front of Him! Our concern is to not primarily create earthly order, we are mainly concerned with being organized according to the Truth, because we are striving for heavenly order.

You said people are to often today ready to level an anathema without any remorse. Very true! Me before anyone else. It is also important to talk openly about spiritual realities.

[Nevski]

[Snip 1. - 8.]

9. "This is an hard saying: who can hear it? [Snip]

1. "The Fathers on 'Loquacity'"

. . .

[Justin Kissel]

My point is that it is not for us newly converted layman--people barely babes in Christ, new to the Church--to be the ones causing division (the same goes for many others, from cradles to long-time converts, I mention newly converted laymen since about 85% of the posts on this forum, and a few other fora I frequent, are by newly converted laymen). If a Saint Photius or a Saint Chrysostom must be exiled or persecuted by another saint... if a Saint Jerome or Augustine or Ambrose must vehemently argue among one another, then that's fine. If Paul and Peter and Mark have their problems, then who am I to sit here and analyze how sinful or justified their division is? When it's us sinners attacking on another, though; when we constantly attack certain groups and do not even try to say something in favor of even the most pious in the group; when we threaten and plan to break off fellowship with them because they're just not traditionalist enough for us: when we do this as sinners who are hard-hearted and ignorant, then there is something wrong. OOD, I've made similar comments like the ones you've made many times (since even the NT itself has a dozen examples of division), but what we are talking about here is not necessary division to protect the purity of the faith: it is about beating people over the heads just cause "we're right and they're not". My point, in my mind at least, is perfectly valid. Yes, there has been division from the beginning, but the pointing out of division is still valid because our traditionalist division is unnecessary. There have been harsh words from the beginning, but our harsh judgmentalism is unnecessary. There have been accusations from the beginning, but our dragging of our brothers through the mud (rather than "covering our Father's nakedness") is unnecessary. If someone writing in the Antiochian word calls us Protestants because he thinks there can never be division, he is absolutely wrong. If he makes the claim because we look like a bunch of self-willed fools fighting amongst ourselves, he might be, in some part, right. At the very least I cannot disagree with him. Not that he's wholly right--I certainly don't count my Bishop or my Priest among the self-willed fools. Yet I acknowledge myself to be one, and I'm sure there are others who are self-willed, and not Christ-willed, posting online in the various fora. But perhaps I should take my own advice and shut up, eh?

[Justin Kissel]

Methodius,

I just noticed (again) what you have as your signature. Just as a personal exercise, maybe it'd be helpful for each of us to examine exactly how much "distress" we have when we discuss divisive matters with our brethren. My guess is that most of us are very apathetic--or self-righteous and self-assured--when we enter into such discussions.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

"Shut up"? Not at all! I'm the biggest fool of them all.

These thoughts you hve trouble me most of the time too, and it is good to talk about them.

The internet is very difficult, in some ways, to convey messages properly.

Traditionalists as a group look like a bunch of whining grandmothers most of the time. It is a scandal, an embarrassment, and a major reason we don't have more converts from new-calendarism.

What do you think should be the approach so that the proper message could be conveyed without sounding judgemental? Perhaps you think there should not even be an approach, something I've often thought.

[Methodius]

I would have to say that it brings me near tears that people can be so close to the Faith and yet wrong on issues of ecumenism, Sergianism, etc. Trust me, I am very distressed and I try to figure out what I can do to try to help them see the truth. However in discussion fora, we rarely see the emotions and just see the facts and logic in arguments.

BTW Congratulations in advance, as the next post you make will be your 500th!