Another (dumb) ROCOR question

[sue57]

Hi,
I posted recently asking some questions having to do with the negative impressions of the ROCOR that I saw on a site called "belief.net", and people here provided some great answers. Well, there's another rather dumb question. Today at church, I picked up a copy of a pamphlet called "What We Believe", written by the priest and matuschka. After reading it, I have a question. I am going to put this in the bluntest terms, and please forgive me, because I know this is a very sophisticated group! In the opinion of the members of this site, do you think that one of the main obstacles to re-unification with Moscow is the impression that the Russian church is still represented by people who may have acted complicitly with Soviet authorities? How widespread is their participation?
I know after apartaid ended, S. Africa had a reconciliation period that was quite formal, I wonder if there will ever be any sort of comparable type of action in the Russian church? Anyway, thanks for reading this, and thanks for any comments on my question! Sue

[Justin Kissel]

I'm not sure why people aren't responding... maybe no one wants to be first... so... I'll say something or other.

I think the worry that some have (that you ask about) is probably more true than the MP would (of course) admit; but on the other hand, I don't think there's some grand conspiracy involved. The main problem seems to me (after someone pointed it out to me) that the MP has communion with various world Orthodox Churches that ROCOR could never (at this time) be in communion with. In essence, reunion with the MP would mean that ROCOR would be going into communion with the various groups that she cannot go into communion with. This is not to say that these groups are total evil--I, for one, hold to the (horror of horrors!) moderate ecclesiology, and do not deny that these world Orthodox groups have grace or have good people in them (a few of those good people participate at this forum, in fact). It's just that communion isn't possible since they are, in the view of ROCOR, headed towards a cliff, and do not appear to see that there is a cliff at all. So, anyway, I'd say that that's the biggest obstacle. With your original question.. I guess I just don't see a lot there. Yes, maybe there is something there and maybe it needs time to change. But that's just it: time can and will change any problem in that area. As Russia leaves it's soviet past it is inevitable that any such problems/corruption that was spoken of (that you brought up) will fade away. The bad effects of Origen didn't last forever, and the corruption caused by the soviets will eventually dissipate as well.

[尼古拉前执事]

Sues, feel welcome to ask anything. Yes, the Patriarch of Moscow was a KGB agent, as were many bishops. In addition to the ecumenism that Paradosis describes above, the Sergianism does keep us separated, as it should.

In many a ROCOR parish there are victims or family members of victims of Sergianism, where priests and bishops reported to the Godless goverment exactly what people were doing. This is why the Church in Russia went underground in the catacombs.

To me, and many others, the Catacomb Church in the Church of Russia, not the Sergianist MP.

[TomS]

It's just that communion isn't possible since they are, in the view of ROCOR, headed towards a cliff, and do not appear to see that there is a cliff at all.

Hi Paradosis.

Can you give me some examples of what these "cliffs" are about, or possibly refer me to any books or articles explaining the above?

I would be very interested in hearing/reading more about this.

[sue57]

Thanks for your helpful responses so far. They really improve my understanding of complicated issues. The pamphlet I referred to, of course, does mention Sergianism, and the catacomb churches. I have to say though, that the trauma of trying to keep religion alive in the Soviet system alone is daunting, then to have the "official" church informing the goverment is beyond sad. It strikes me as completely tragic.

I too am curious about which churches the MP is in communion with, that ROCOR does not want to be associated with, for lack of a better way of putting this.

This is rather off the point, but I live out in the country, and there is a small college town about 25 miles away. Looking at a "Finger Lakes Vacation guide", I saw that there was an Orthodox church in this town. (In these parts, even Catholic churches are kind of exotic!), so I was curious to see their website. The church was Antiochian, and I'm sure it's a very nice church with nice people, but seeing the pews, all the women with their heads uncovered, and some other stuff...just seemed weird to me. I guess I've quickly become accustomed to ROCOR practices.

[Methodius]

Actually Sues, those are Orthodox practices you are used to, just unfortunately being practiced where you visited. Where do you live?

[sue57]

Oh, I didn't visit this church. I just looked at their website, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I live near Rochester, and attend a church there.

I think I live about 130 miles from Jordanville, but I'd love to visit there. Maybe later in the summer. I work with someone who went to grad school in Cooperstown (about 20 miles from Jordanville), and she had no idea about the monastery, seminary, etc. As I said, I've never been there, but I get the idea that the area is rather remote.