Poll - Are the pious.....

[Liudmilla]

How We Conduct Ourselves In Church
http://www.orthodoxapologetics.tk/

Let all things be done decently and in order. I Cor 14,40

In response to those who have asked about Orthodox worship, I have written the following.

1 Foreword

Although worship is fundamentally inward, in the rule of prayer, because we are incarnate and have bodies, we also need to follow outward disciplines. These physical disciplines help us to deepen our attention and prayer, making sure that our bodies, as well as our souls, are involved in the worship of the Holy Trinity, and that we are not distracted. For are not our bodies ‘temples of the Holy Spirit’ (I Cor 6,19)? We avoid distraction all the more when we follow these disciplines together in public prayer, as the Body of Christ. For we do not pray ‘My Father’, but ‘Our Father’.

Thus, we dress modestly for church; men do not come to church in dirty work clothes, or in open shirts or shorts; women do not enter church in trousers, mini-skirts and low-cut dresses, and modestly cover their heads in obedience to the Apostle (I Cor 11). We also make sure that mobile phones are switched off. In church we stand, we do not sit (unless we are ill), for in church we are in the presence of the Risen Christ. In some churches, they still follow the pious custom of children standing at the front, men on the right and women on the left. There are also some basic outward disciplines of piety which we physically observe very frequently during Orthodox worship. Before we can explain when we follow these disciplines, we first have to know what they are. This is explained below

a) The Sign of the Cross and the Bowing of the Head

In making the sign of the cross, we sign ourselves or bless ourselves, placing over ourselves the cross of Christ. To make it, we always use the right hand. First, we put the tips of the thumb and the tips of the two fingers nearest to the thumb together in the name of the Holy Trinity. Then we lay the little finger and the finger nearest to it across the palm, recalling that Christ is both God and man, that He has two natures. Then with the tips of our thumb and the two fingers, we touch our forehead, our stomach, the right shoulder and the left shoulder, making a cross. (Not left shoulder and then right shoulder, as the Roman Catholics have been doing since the late Middle Ages when they altered the sign of the cross). After this we bow our heads.

According to St Ambrose of Milan, in this way ‘the seal of Christ appears on our forehead, on our heart and on our arms. On our forehead so that we will always confess Christ, on our heart so that we will always love Him, on our arms so that we will always do good’. In signing our head, we remember God Who dwells in the Highest and also the Head of the Church, Christ the Word, Who was born from Him, just as our own words also come from our heads. In touching our stomach, we remember the earth and the descent to hades of the Son of God and also the conception of the Son in the womb of the Mother of God. In touching the right shoulder, we remember the sitting on the right hand of the Father, in touching the left, we recall those who are condemned and receive eternal torment on the left hand. In touching our shoulders we also recall the Holy Spirit, ‘Who is everywhere present and filleth all things’.

b) The Sign of the Cross and a Bow from the Waist or Small Bow

In the words of the Typikon, the book which contains the instructions for Church services, a small bow is when, having made the sign of the cross, we incline the upper body from the waist, in such a way that we touch the ground with our right hand, neither kneeling, nor touching the ground with our head.

c) The Sign of the Cross and a Bow to the Ground or Prostration

A prostration is when we first make the sign of the cross and then bow down to the ground, in such a way that we bend our knees, and touch the ground with our knees, our hands and our foreheads. Then we at once raise ourselves up. As St Basil the Great says, this symbolizes our fall into sin and also the fact that we have been raised up again by the Redemption of Christ, receiving our calling to heaven. (The English word heaven actually means to heave, that is to raise up).

For this reason, on days when we think especially of the Resurrection, we should not make prostrations. These include all the Lord’s Days, that is Sundays, known as the day of the Resurrection. This was decreed by the canons of the First Oecumenical Council in the year 325, repeated in Canon 91 of St Basil the Great and again in Canon 90 of the Sixth Oecumenical Council in 681. Other non-prostration days are the fifty days between the Resurrection (Easter) and Trinity (Pentecost). This is because these are days of the Resurrection, when, raised up with Christ, we naturally stand. Finally, there are all those feast days when the Polyeleion is sung at Matins. On all these days, we celebrate the victory of Christ over death. We celebrate this by standing, like the angels who stand at the throne of God.

An apparent exception to this is at Pentecost Vespers when we kneel at the ‘Kneeling Prayers’ of St Basil the Great. However, we should remember that this Vespers, though taking place on a Sunday afternoon or evening, is actually the Vespers of the Monday of the Holy Spirit. According to ancient tradition, we should not kneel during these prayers, looking upwards, as is common practice at present, but should in fact kneel with our heads touching the ground. (This is also the case at the Great Entrance at the Liturgy of the Presanctified). Exceptionally, on the Third Sunday in the Great Fast, the Sunday of the Cross, and on the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, if it falls on a Sunday, we do make prostrations in honour of the Precious Cross, the source of our salvation.

2 General Observations

On entering and leaving a church, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow three times. During the Great Fast we make the sign of the cross and prostration three times. Each time we say the prayer: ‘O God, cleanse me a sinner’.

When we see a bishop or a priest, we always take their blessing. Approaching the priest, we do not make the sign of the cross, but bow our head, placing our hands in front of us, with our right hand placed flat on our left, to receive his blessing. In the case of a bishop, we make a small bow first, without the sign of the cross and then ask for his blessing.

After we have bought candles (and also at the Divine Liturgy prosphora), we go up to the holy icons or relics. We make the sign of the cross and two small bows, or prostrations (according to the day – see above), kiss the icon and then make a third sign of the cross and small bow, or prostration. Then we say our prayer, lighting our candle. We take care to kiss the icon in the correct place. If it is an icon of the Saviour or the Mother of God, we take care to kiss the fringe of their raiment, if a martyr, we kiss the cross they hold, if a bishop, the Gospel they hold. In any case, we take care never to kiss the holy faces on the icons. From this moment on, we do not wander around the church without a good reason, but take up a place and stand silently in worship.

At the beginning of a service, we should make the sign of the cross and a small bow three times. In general, whenever we hear ‘Come let us worship…’, or the Thrice-Holy Hymn, or ‘Blessed is the Name of the Lord…’ (all of which are read or sung three times), we make the sign of the cross and a small bow three times. (The exception is at the beginning of Matins and at the triple Alleluia in the middle of the Six Psalms, when we simply sign ourselves three times). According to the Typikon, during the Six Psalms all candles should be blown out, for this moment is night and we await the appearance of Christ.

During litanies we should make the sign of the cross and small bow once at the first petition and at the exclamation at the end, when the priest glorifies the Holy Trinity. (Some pious people do this at every petition, like the clergy).

During the singing of stichira or other hymns, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow once at the end of the stichira, if appropriate, for example after the words ‘and save our souls’ or ‘glory to thee’. At the reading of the Kathisma and the threefold singing of ‘Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Glory to Thee, O God,’, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow three times, except on Saturdays, Sundays and feast days, when we simply make the sign of the cross and incline our heads three times.

At the Ninth Ode of the Canon at Matins, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow once at the end of every ‘More honourable…’.

When we are censed or the priest says to us ‘Peace be unto all’, we do not make the sign of the cross, but bow our heads. Similarly if a bishop blesses us with the double and triple candles, we bow our heads, without making the sign of the cross. However, if we are blessed with the Gospel, the Holy Gifts or the cross, then we make the sign of the cross and a small bow, or prostration, according to the day. When a priest says, ‘Bow your heads to the Lord’, or, ‘Let us bow our heads to the Lord’, we do so, like the priest, and raise them only when the priest gives the exclamation. In such a way, we show both humility and our gratitude to God.

3. At the Divine Liturgy

At the Little Entrance at the Liturgy at ‘Come let us worship…’, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow once.

Before and after the Gospel reading, at the singing of ‘Glory to thee, O God, glory to Thee’, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow once. We should listen to the Gospel with our heads slightly bowed, for Christ is speaking to us.

At the Great Entrance, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow once, for the gifts are not yet consecrated. We incline our heads as the priest makes the commemorations. After the Great Entrance, at the end of the Cherubic Hymn at the triple Alleluia, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow three times.

At the beginning of the Creed, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow. Some devout people make the sign of the cross at every article of the Creed, others at particular moments during it.

At the end of ‘We sing to thee’, during which the gifts are consecrated, we make a small bow, or prostration, once, according to the day.

At the end of the Hymn to the Mother of God, ‘It is meet’, we make a small bow, or prostration, once, according to the day.

Before the Lord’s Prayer, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow, or prostration, once, according to the day, and at the exclamation at the end we make the sign of the cross and a small bow once.

At the exclamation ‘The Holy Things for the Holy’, we should make the sign of the cross and a small bow three times.

When the holy gifts are brought out at the words ‘With fear of God and faith, draw near’, we make the sign of the cross and a small bow, or prostration, once, according to the day. We do the same when they are brought out again at the words ‘Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages’. (We do not make prostrations if we have received communion).

4 Afterword

Such are some pious customs for our conduct in the church of God. However, it should be remembered that there is great variety of practices in the Orthodox Church. Different Orthodox people have different customs. Thus, in some countries it is customary to kneel during the Gospel, or during the Great Doxology at Matins, even on Sundays and between Easter and Trinity. Others may follow few of the above physical disciplines and perhaps dress for church carelessly or make the sign of the cross negligently. In such cases, we should not be tempted to pass judgement on the piety, or seeming lack of piety, of others like the foolish pharisees, but rather think of our own sins and lack of piety, seeking our salvation and not our condemnation.

[Liudmilla]

Small and Large Prostrations

http://www.peterandpaul.net/artOrthodox ... quette.htm

Other bodily gestures used in Orthodox worship include the small bow, or metania, (a bow from the waist with the hand extending toward the ground), and large bow, or prostration (a full bow, kneeling and place the head to the ground). It is customary to make one, or more often three metania before venerating an icon, relic or other holy thing. They may also be made at times (for instance before the reading of the Gospel) during the Divine Liturgy. Prostrations are made more often during fasting seasons, especially the penitential season of Great Lent (for instance with the "Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian"). Prostrations, however, may also be made before venerating icons, or at the Lord's prayer, and other times at weekday services (see below). The Scriptures are full of references to prostrations as a form of both veneration (of holy people or things) and worship of God.

In order to allow us to enter into the joy and victory of the Resurrection (by which God has made us to "stand upright,") the Church canons forbid penitential acts of prostration on Sundays and the fifty days between Pascha and Pentecost. Small bows (metania) may be made and, in some places or parishes, kneeling (out of a sense of awe and worship) is practiced on Sundays at the Great Entrance or during the consecration of the Holy Gifts. This canon is not to be taken merely as a legalistic rule, but expresses the spirit of the Lord's Day, which is always a celebration and participation of Christ's Death and Resurrection, through which we have received forgiveness of sins. Unless one is under a penance of some duration, it is assumed that Sacrament of Confession and prayer of absolution would have been received, if necessary, on Sunday morning before Divine Liturgy. The idea is that by the time one comes to Divine Liturgy, he/she should have taken care of the acts of repentance and reconciliation necessary to stand before the Risen Lord with a pure conscience, having received the remission of sins. The spirit of the canon seeks to remind us in a bodily way to exult in the Risen Christ through whom we "have access by one Spirit to the Father" (Eph. 2:18). Its purpose is to maintain the integrity of the Lord's Day, reserving the work of repentance for weekdays in preparation for Sundays.

[spiridon]

you forgot after the Nicene Creed ,our symbol of Faith is said allowed, the Priests Proclaims LET US GIVE THANKS TO THE LORD...
at this time many Sign themelves and touch the floor,as a sign of complete reverance, we must always remember that we have to be responsible and keep order in the church, you cant be just doing prostrations and touching the floor at every instance that you want to , WHY ? because it distracts people from there worhip and the demons love when this happens- so look around and follow the majority and keep the Church at ease and when you get home you can do as many prostrations as you like.. :mrgreen:

[Liudmilla]

http://www.archdiocese.ca/moreLiturgicaltraditions.pdf

11) “What about making prostrations?”
By “prostration”, we mean here falling to one’s knees and touching the head to the ground and then rising up again. This has been a sign of humility before God and men from time immemorial. Jacob prostrated himself before Esau seven times to show his humility (Gen. 33:3) and this has always been the classic Middle-eastern way of acknowledging another’s greatness or to show sorrow for one’s sin. Small wonder it remains in the worship of the Eastern Orthodox Church!

The believer may make a prostration any time to show submission to God and to express sorrow for sin. However, there are times in the Church Year when joy is the dominant key-note and liturgical expression of sorrow is out of place. Thus the Church, in her canons, forbids making prostrations at Pascha and throughout the Paschal season (i.e. until Ascension). Also, because each Sunday is a “little Pascha”, we are not normally to prostrate on Sundays either. (We may, however, make a deep bow from the waist—such as we do at the “epiclesis” or invocation of the Holy Spirit upon the Bread and Wine in the Liturgy.)

There are, however, certain times in our services where prostrations are especially appropriate and are, in fact, required.

On weekday Liturgies, after the “epiclesis” (mentioned above), because the Holy Spirit comes down on us and upon the Gifts of Bread and Wine to transform them into the Body and Blood of Christ, we make a prostration, acknowledging thereby the Presence of the Lord in the Eucharist.

During services of the Cross, (such as the September 14 Feast of the Elevation, the Third Sunday in Lent and on August 1), the Cross, decorated with flowers, is brought into the midst of the church. After it is placed in the center, we sing the hymn “Before Your Cross, we bow down in worship” and make a triple prostration as we kiss the precious Cross.

At the conclusion of “Forgiveness Sunday Vespers”, at the Ceremony of Mutual Forgiveness, we kiss the Cross displayed in the church and then prostrate to each other, beginning with the priest. We prostrate to each of our neighbours in turn and ask forgiveness, saying “Forgive me, brother! (or sister) and then exchange the Kiss of Peace. In this way, we begin Great Lent by humbling ourselves and making peace with all men.
In Great Lent (when not a Sunday), we make prostrations during the Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian. This is a beautiful prayer, ascribed to one of the Church’s great poets. We pray as follows:

“O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of laziness, despair, lust of power and idle talk!” (We then make a prostration). “But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love to Your servant!” (second prostration) “Yes, O Lord and King! Grant me to see my own sins and not to judge my brother!” (third prostration). We then says twelve times “O God, cleanse me a sinner!” and bow from the waist. Finally, we recite the entire prayer all the way through a second time, with a final prostration at the end.

This Prayer of St. Ephraim is also used twice in the Lenten “Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts”, but it is used there without the twelve-fold “O God, cleanse me a sinner!” and without the final and second repetition.

Also in the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, we prostrate ourselves when the priest elevates the candle and chants “Wisdom! Let us attend! The Light of Christ illumines all!” We do so again throughout the Great Entrance. At the Great Entrance in the “normal” Divine Liturgy, (while we sing the hymn “Let us who mystically represent the Cherubim”), we of course do not prostrate ourselves, for what is entering our midst is mere Bread and Wine, to be offered at the altar. But at the Presanctified Liturgy, (while we sing the hymn “Now the Powers of heaven with us do serve”), what is brought in is the Presanctified and true Body and Blood of Christ, sanctified on the previous Sunday and reserved until then. That is why we prostrate ourselves as it enters our midst, for It is the true Christ in our midst.

[Liudmilla]

Should we kneel: a response
http://www.dneoca.org/articles/responsekneel0795.html
by Fr. Seraphim Gisetti

Come, let us worship and fall down before Christ;

O Son of God, Who rose from the dead, save us who sing to You: Alleluia.

Father Michael Koblosh's article "Should we kneel on Sundays" (O.N.E., April 1995), assumes that the answer to the general question "Should we kneel?" is a YES. However, having attended services in many of the churches in our diocese, I have found that most individuals do not kneel in church even on weekdays, even during the Diocesan Assembly.

Before going further, let's take a look at what is meant by the word "kneeling." The Orthodox Church has always recognized that the physical attitude of an individual during prayer or worship is important.

We often speak of the Church as including all the senses in her worship, but we usually limit our concepts to the five senses. However, for the Church, our kinesthetic sense ­ the sense of body movement and body position ­ is just as important as smell, taste, touch, hearing or vision.

In fact, the Church has recognized eight positions of prayer and worship: standing upright, sitting, inclining of the head and neck (what is called a "bow"), bowing at the waist ("deep bow"), touching our forehead to the floor ("bow to the earth" ­ popularly known as a "prostration"), bending one's knees ("kneeling"), standing on one's knees (also, improperly, called "kneeling"), and holding a bow to the earth ("full prostration").

There is a ninth action that is seen in many churches today a bow with the addition of touching one's hand to the floor. That is either a pietistic addition to a deep bow or a replacement of a prostration. In the latter case, I believe it was begun by people who could no longer make a prostration because of their health, but has been taken over as a "replacement" prostration.

The eight actions are performed by both the clergy and the laity at various times in the services. Though most eliminate as many as five of the actions, replacing them with just three standing upright, bowing the head, and sitting whether appropriately or inappropriately. Appropriate sitting is when it is called for, such as during the Kathisma, while inappropriate sitting is done by custom, such as when the Royal Doors are closed or during all litanies.

Each of these eight positions has its own distinct term in Greek (and in Slavonic). Only in English have we not established appropriate terminology as yet. Thus, we speak of "kneeling" which should mean bending a knee to the ground and manage to confuse all activities in which a knee touches the ground. We speak of "prostration" despite the fact that lying on the ground (being prostrate) is not one of the eight actions.

As a result, there is a lot of confusion, especially when reading the fathers or the Canons of the Church in translation. The same confusion often exists because the words for "prayer" and "worship" are also often confused and assumed to mean the same thing when they, also, are quite distinct in Greek and Slavonic.

So, when the Fathers speak of "standing," we need to be very careful to know which term they are using because they can be referring to "standing on one's knees" as well as "standing upright."

At the same time, when they speak of not "kneeling during prayer," we need to be very careful not to assume that they are categorically saying that no knee should touch the ground. Such things are simplifications due to the limitations of English terminology and not their intent at all.

But why should Christians use any of the eight actions beyond simple standing upright in church? The answer comes from the Gospels. All of the actions were either performed by the Lord Himself, or by various individuals to Him.

Thus, when our Lord is praying in the garden of Gethsemane, He "places His knees down (on the ground) and prays." (Luke 22:41); the same thing that we do in the "Kneeling Prayers" of Pentecost we "again and again, bending our knees, placing them down (on the ground), let us pray to the Lord." For each action, there are appropriate correspondences, both from the Gospels and the services.

So why don't we do all these things any more? Two reasons ignorance and laziness. So many people who come to church are not sure of what action to perform at what time, so they watch the older folks. As one ages, one's joints tend to ache and one's mobility tends to become limited, so many of our older members cannot perform many of the actions that they used to do with ease. So as they do less, so does the entire congregation, because everyone else is following them.

The second problem is the very effective but misguided teaching that no knee should touch the ground on a Sunday. This is where ignorance and laziness combine. Kneeling and prostration is work. Prostrations are impossible in any church with pews (which means most parishes in New England), unless you leave the pew and move to the aisle at the appropriate times, which causes noise and confusion.

So many of our pews are set so closely together that even kneeling is uncomfortable, and in those parishes without pews, the thickness of the carpeting leaves much to be desired. Over all, the general approach towards having a knee on the ground for any length of time, in almost all of the churches of the New England Diocese (and most other churches in America), seems to be to make things as difficult and uncomfortable as possible.

Our churches are built and furnished to stand and sit in, not to kneel in. This is in contrast to the pictures of churches in Greece or the Holy Land or Russia in past centuries, when they were filled with fairly thick oriental carpets, precisely to allow people to stand on the knees without permanent damage.

Throughout the centuries, kneeling (whether standing on one's knees, or bending one's knees in prayer), has been one of the foremost weapons in the spiritual fight against pride.

In giving up this physical lowering of ourselves, we also give up much of the battle against the "I." There are three reasons why Christians kneel: as a sign of humility, as a sign of repentance, and as a sign of awe. The physical act of lowering oneself is simple to do, yet is one of the most difficult spiritual acts of Christian piety because it runs counter to our prideful image of ourselves.

So often we see ourselves as good people yes, we sin, we transgress, but overall, we see ourselves as basically good. If we kneel, it is because it is a custom, not because it reflects our spiritual state.

How many Christians truly feel unworthy to receive the Body and Blood of Christ? How many of us see ourselves as publicans in a world of Christians? How many of us, as we recite the prayer before Communion, truly mean that we are the chief sinners in all the world? The answer, unfortunately, is very few.

Why is this true? Why have we lost the sense of sin and sinfulness in our lives? Why doesn't our conscience convict us more thoroughly than it does? Go to a church for a weekday or Saturday service; how many people kneel? How many of us lower ourselves before God, our fellow Christians, and the world? Again, not many.

Both pride and the devil's temptation have convinced us to stand upright in church. Sitting is acceptable, kneeling ­ well, that is old fashioned and we know better now. And yet the First Ecumenical Council wanted us to kneel in prayer for 271 out of 365 days of the year call it three fourths of the time and we, for the sake of the letter of the law, have given it up entirely.

At the same time, are we truly following even the letter of the law? The Fathers distinguished between prayer and worship. The communal act of the Church is worship. Prayer is an individual act, always.

Even in those circumstances that several individuals pray the same words simultaneously, the understanding has always been that each prayer must come from each individual's heart. In other words, what I feel as I pray has no bearing on what you feel as you pray. That is why the priest prays so regularly at every Sacrament, that the Grace of the Holy Spirit will come down regardless of the priest's sins or lack of faith.

Thus, when the Fathers speak of standing "in prayer" they do not mean standing "in worship" nor do they mean standing "in a service," nor do they mean that your knee must never touch the floor on a Sunday. And, when the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council refer to "those who kneel in prayer" and establish that "prayer (shall) be made to God standing," they are saying nothing about kneeling in worship or during a service.

To fall down before God, whether in a bow to the earth or by standing on one's knees or by bending of our knees is an act of worship of creature to Creator. We are not worthy, we are not capable, of being children of God without His intervention, His Mercy and His Grace.

Kneeling should never be a ritual, nor should prostrations be a mindless activity. They should be reflections of our love for God. Unlike the Roman Catholic West, most kneeling and prostrations in the Orthodox Church have very little to do with repentance. The prostrations of St. Ephraim's prayer, at the Alleluia at Matins, at the penitential troparia at Lenten Vespers or Com-pline, the holding of a bow to the earth during "Let my prayer arise," or "My soul, my soul, why are you sleeping?" and other similar instances are the only penitential times.

The standing on one's knees during the Eucharistic Canon, the bows of various depths when the Mysteries of the Eucharist are brought forth, the bow to the earth before receiving the Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ are all instances of awe or humility, not penitence.

The real answer to the question, "Should we kneel?" or even "Should we kneel on Sunday?" is to be found by looking at our lives as Christians. It is a sad fact that the Church in America is becoming, more and more, a "Sunday" Church. The vast majority of Orthodox Christians attend church only on Sundays even including Saturday evening Vespers, which is still a service belonging to the Resurrection cycle.

It is useless to say that people should come to church more often they don't. We must teach people where they are rather than where we would like them to be, and where they are is on Sunday.

For almost two thousand years, the act of kneeling has been one of the most potent weapons against pride. To this day, find a humble person, and you will find a person who kneels, regularly and consistently.

It is this weapon that we are depriving ourselves of when we need it the most. This doesn't mean that everyone who kneels will instantly and successfully become humble, but we are making it that much har-der for ourselves by removing it from our repertoire of spiritual and pious acts.

Because we are a "Sunday Church," we need to reintroduce kneeling on Sunday for no other reason than to return to the proportions envisioned by the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council. There are 52 Sundays in a year; if we keep the eight Sundays of Pascha and the two or three Sundays from the Nativity through the Theophany as "kneeling free," we will still keep the vision of Pascha and the "Winter Pascha" as special times while reintroducing the physical aspects of humility and awe and adoration into the lives of most Christians.

As Fr. Koblosh stated, whether we kneel or not, is not going to be the reason God accepts us into His Kingdom. Our salvation depends on our faith and our humility. Let's not throw out one of our best weapons against the sin of pride.

(Fr. Seraphim is the former rector of Ss. Cyril and Methodius Church in Terryville, CT)

[spiridon]

thanks Liudmilla for your last posting from the Priest Seraphim, again if you look at my last post on page 5 , I posted an Old Believer writing from an old Believer site, and this Priest seraphim is on the same lines,aswell...:mrgreen:

[Myrrh]

you forgot after the Nicene Creed ,our symbol of Faith is said allowed, the Priests Proclaims LET US GIVE THANKS TO THE LORD...
at this time many Sign themelves and touch the floor,as a sign of complete reverance, we must always remember that we have to be responsible and keep order in the church, you cant be just doing prostrations and touching the floor at every instance that you want to , WHY ? because it distracts people from there worhip and the demons love when this happens- so look around and follow the majority and keep the Church at ease and when you get home you can do as many prostrations as you like.. :mrgreen:

What's it to you how many prostration people do? Those distracted can always leave, and take the demons with them since it's their distraction that has caused them to appear... ..and those who aren't bothered will be spared the condescending daggers from the prissy spiritually superior.

Prostrations, however, may also be made before venerating icons, or at the Lord's prayer, and other times at weekday services (see below). The Scriptures are full of references to prostrations as a form of both veneration (of holy people or things) and worship of God.

In order to allow us to enter into the joy and victory of the Resurrection (by which God has made us to "stand upright,") the Church canons forbid penitential acts of prostration on Sundays and the fifty days between Pascha and Pentecost. Small bows (metania) may be made and, in some places or parishes, kneeling (out of a sense of awe and worship) is practiced on Sundays at the Great Entrance or during the consecration of the Holy Gifts. This canon is not to be taken merely as a legalistic rule, but expresses the spirit of the Lord's Day, which is always a celebration and participation of Christ's Death and Resurrection, through which we have received forgiveness of sins. Unless one is under a penance of some duration, it is assumed that Sacrament of Confession and prayer of absolution would have been received, if necessary, on Sunday morning before Divine Liturgy. The idea is that by the time one comes to Divine Liturgy, he/she should have taken care of the acts of repentance and reconciliation necessary to stand before the Risen Lord with a pure conscience, having received the remission of sins. The spirit of the canon seeks to remind us in a bodily way to exult in the Risen Christ through whom we "have access by one Spirit to the Father" (Eph. 2:1. Its purpose is to maintain the integrity of the Lord's Day, reserving the work of repentance for weekdays in preparation for Sundays.

Two things to bear in mind. Here it proscribes prostrations at certain times, but these are prostrations of a penitential nature and not for any other reason that prostrations are made. And,

An Open Church. There are no pews or chairs in most Orthodox Churches. We stand during worship services out of reverence and humility before God. The absence of rigid pews gives us freedom to move about the Church and feel at home. We are free to venerate icons and light candles, as well as to bow and do the prostrations necessary at times during worship. http://www.orthodox.net/articles/heavenonearth.html

Christ set us free from pharisaical nit-picking.

Myrrh