ioannis wrote:Iconophili:
Where is it written that HATRED is an Orthodox trait?
Milla
Milla, "hatred" is in fact a trait that is inseperable from Orthodoxy. I hate many things. Most of them I don't hate enough, and some of the things I should hate I truly don't.
Hatred in Orthodoxy is ideally a passionless hatred - similiar perhaps to how you might hate the cancer that kills a loved one.
Just keep your explaination simple, what your meaning is "Hate The Sin, Not The Sinner"
AndyHolland wrote:ioannis wrote:Iconophili:
Where is it written that HATRED is an Orthodox trait?
Milla
Milla, "hatred" is in fact a trait that is inseperable from Orthodoxy. I hate many things. Most of them I don't hate enough, and some of the things I should hate I truly don't.
Hatred in Orthodoxy is ideally a passionless hatred - similiar perhaps to how you might hate the cancer that kills a loved one.
How about we give up hating the cancer victims - even when they are Jews? God give us the strength to love our enemies, bless those who hate us and spitefully use us.
andy holland
sinner
I hate the sin, not the sinner.
Somewhere above Ioannis wrote that there is such a thing as passionless hatred....I have to disagree. Hate is an emotion, a strong emotion. You cannot hate someone or something dispassionately, the emotion is always there. I think the problem here lies in our understanding of the word. Today's english is a pesky thing at best. When you translate this word into another languge , you find whole levels of degrees that are missing in the english word. I find this to be true very frequently when I try to translate an English word for my husband. I believe that for lack of a better word this was used in the translations of not only the bible but other works as well.
This leads me to believe that hatred is the wrong word for Ioannis's meaning and hatred is NOT an Orthodox trait. Hatred in any form is wrong and deterimental to our soul for it wedges the door open for other detrimental things. Russians say that you should not hate the cancer (as in disease) but thank God that he has found you worthy to atone for your sins here and now.
So I disagree with Ioannis and say that hatred is not good for the soul.
Milla
Liudmilla wrote:Somewhere above Ioannis wrote that there is such a thing as passionless hatred....I have to disagree. Hate is an emotion, a strong emotion. You cannot hate someone or something dispassionately, the emotion is always there. I think the problem here lies in our understanding of the word. Today's english is a pesky thing at best. When you translate this word into another languge , you find whole levels of degrees that are missing in the english word. I find this to be true very frequently when I try to translate an English word for my husband. I believe that for lack of a better word this was used in the translations of not only the bible but other works as well.
This leads me to believe that hatred is the wrong word for Ioannis's meaning and hatred is NOT an Orthodox trait. Hatred in any form is wrong and deterimental to our soul for it wedges the door open for other detrimental things. Russians say that you should not hate the cancer (as in disease) but thank God that he has found you worthy to atone for your sins here and now.
So I disagree with Ioannis and say that hatred is not good for the soul.
Milla
Actually The Fathers, have wrote, God gave us HATE , to hate SIN, but not man.
Russians say that you should not hate the cancer (as in disease) but thank God that he has found you worthy to atone for your sins here and now.
Indeed, and the thought did occur to me that for this reason the example I gave was a bit off. I was just trying to demonstrate how you can hate something dispassionatley; after all, your thoughts never dwell on how bad the cancer cells are. 
The subject of "hate" is very often confused today. Hate can be a virtue, or at least a product of virtue, just as easily as "love".
There are three words in Greek that can be used for the variations of "love". The word "felia" is used for feelings you have toward a friend or something that helps you. "Eros" is a physical love, which is where the word "erotic" comes from. And "agape" means an elevated spiritual love. Greek does not allow these words to be intermixed.
When we talk about love, we must be mindful that we are not talking about passionate love, such as a love of something physical, which is a sin. We are talking about "Agape", a spiritual love that places God always at the forefront. And even "Agape" must be proportional: we cannot love our children, mother, or father, more than Christ.
Similiarly, there are different types of hate. Any kind of passionate hate that we dwell on is bad and most likley a sin. But a spiritual hate is a must. Orthodox Christians must all hate those things that trip us up, and cause us and our loved ones to loose their eternal crown. I hate my sins and only by hating them spiritually can I truly repent. I hate Islam and all of them many forms of heresies that the evil one has laid as traps. I can go on but I hope it is a little clearer now.
Anyway, I don't have much more to say on the matter, but maybe this subject should be broken off into a new thread?
A counter example to what I said, and others:
"God hated Esau from his mother's womb." And "God is Love."
And these statements are true and completely non-contradictory because the Holy Scripture is true. Also, the statement about God and Esau is made twice - in Genesis and Romans I believe so it is OT and NT to reinforce the point.
Perhaps that is why "God alone is good" and we have to leave allot up to mystery and just do our best.
It just seems wise and more prudent for us who are truly weak to hate the sin, not the sinner, and let God judge because he is infinitely more experience at it?
The thing that is really scary is that Esau isn't such a bad guy from our perspective. He weeps and mourns for his sins. And while he had two wives, Solomon had more than 200 - and Esau forgave his brother and embraced him, while David secured his throne through some pretty ruthless tactics at the end. St. Paul calls our attention to Esau in a couple places I believe, and as a way of warning.
I really don't see anything wrong with the guy - I can easily see him as my better - and maybe that is the point.
andy holland
sinner
