Old Believers

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Fri 26 May 2006 11:46 pm

Thanks.

Are any of the priested OBs bishops not involved with ecumenism?

spiridon · Post by **spiridon** » Sat 27 May 2006 11:14 am

involved is a very wide word and has gotten alot of good honorable people in Trouble, For instance St.Vitaly would go to a prostitue and
hire her for an hour and sit in a corner and pray, the prostitutes thought he was crazy, but he had paid for his hour as the other men,now was he INVOLVED with a prostitute ? most certainly SO, except he was asking God to have mercy on her for this one hour and change her ways...
so being involved could mean alot, for instance a Bishop never knows who is an ecumenist by heart and mind, But if that ecumenist by heart and mind comes to the bishop for spiritual guidance of his family/wife/husband, the bishop is entrusted to the Episcopate to help, by doing this he is now involved in ecumensim with out even knowning it..
so its safe to say WE ALL have somehow been involve with Ecumenism
in some way or another either known or unknown...the better way to ask is, Are Old Believers Supportive of Ecumenism of today, because we all know ecumenism worked centuries before, only in todays 100 years has the evil one attacked so fiercely that ecumenism should be buried with our Holy Fathers and the new version be called modernism instaed, I still hold that Ecumenism should be that which the Holy Fathers of the church knew it to mean and not the heresy it is today...

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Fri 2 June 2006 11:04 am

Thanks.

But are any Old Believers not part of the WCC, or in communion (or in talks with) the MP or ROCOR? I know one group set up a OB Patriarch, so I would think the MP isn't on good terms with them (am I right)?

Thanks.

Edward · Post by **Edward** » Fri 2 June 2006 11:57 am

When I lived in Moscow, I had a great deal of contact with the "Edinovery", which are Old Ritualists who re-entered the Russian Church in 1801 and now function in the present day Moscow Patriarchate. The Old Rite ROCOR parish in Erie, Penn. could also be viewed as such.

I visited an Old Believer Church bookshop in Moscow. I asked the lady there about certain ecclesiastical matters. First, the church was with the main body of Old Believers who have hierarchy. The current primate is Metropolitan Corneilius and their website is: http://www.rpsc.ru/, however it is only in Russian. I have noticed that they have cordial relations with the Moscow Patriarchate. Metropolitan Corneilius even participation in the Russian People's Council. However, they are not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate.

So, back to the story... I asked the woman whether they believed there was grace in the Mysteries of Moscow Patriarchate or any "Nikonian" (basically churches that do not follow the Pre-Nikonian rites) and she said no. I asked her about the other Old Rite groups, and she said they were sects and not really Old Believers. I asked her about the Old Calendarists in Greece. She said, "We have dialogued with them but do not pray with them".

I have also heard that anybody joining their church is received by baptism. So whether you are Old or New Calendar, MP,ROCOR, OCA, ROAC, Matthewite, Cyprianite, Kiousis, HOCNA, ROCIE, etc., you would probably be baptised if you joined them.

I have never seen any attraction to ecumenism on their part, they are still annoyed by Patriarch Nikon's reforms in the 17th century.

Edward Henderson

Reader Nicholas · Post by **Reader Nicholas** » Sun 4 June 2006 5:01 pm

You asked all this of a woman in a bookstore. Did you even think of asking a Priest or was that just too difficult? Who is a woman in a bookstore to determine who is with/out grace? A cleric in a bookstore is passing judgement! Good Theology there.

Nicholas

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Sun 4 June 2006 6:34 pm

Reader Nicholas wrote:
You asked all this of a woman in a bookstore. Did you even think of asking a Priest or was that just too difficult? Who is a woman in a bookstore to determine who is with/out grace? A cleric in a bookstore is passing judgement! Good Theology there.

Nicholas

Thank you Edward for the info. The lady could be right, as she very well may have asked her heirarchs. Besides, if you ever read anything about them, all OBs believe this. It's not like she made this stuff up (well, the modernist OBs (or some OBs probably use this term) have joined ROCOR or MP, and have betrayed what the OBs believe; but the hardcore ones definately believe the Nikonians are Graceless).

I must ask though, are any OB heirarchs not talking in any way with the MP or ROCOR? I hope they stay away from them; otherwise, more and more OBs will lose their Orthodoxy. Even if some "Nikonians" see OBs are heretics, they will become even moreso in heresy if they join MP or ROCOR.

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Fri 9 June 2006 11:18 am

I must say, after reading a brief history of the Old Believers, in some ways, aren't they no different than the Old Calendarists (and thus, are maybe the really True Orthodox)? They have been severly persecuted by "Nikonians" (for which I have never heard repentance for), and they seperated because of changes. Weren't they right in protesting? If you start allowing little changes in like Patriarch Nikon did, then before you know it, you have Roman Catholicism where the changes just don't stop (I'm not saying this has happened in the "Nikonian" Churches, but it could have, as it happened in the RC). And then again, if you are an OB, and look at the OCA and MP as Nikonian, there have been many changes in various aspects in these Churches. Plus, from what I have read, the changes Patriarch Nikon made were done without a Council (but rather acted as the Pope does). Even if his changes were accepted by later Councils, why would he act like a Pope in the first place? He should have repented, IMHO. Was it worth it to cause a schism just so the Russians could be more like the Greeks? He should have not changed things so that a schism wouldn't be made.

Anyways, in some ways it looks like the OC situation in Greece some 400 or so years earlier. Any thoughts?