St. Paul saw potential in their conversion because they were seeking the "unknown God". But, the See of Rome seperated from the true Church of Christ and became apostates. They lost the Grace. And for 1000 years continued to preach false doctrine. The little good they do cannot make up for their apostacy. They must repent.
Joanna
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
"When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
So if Jesus Christ the eternal Word marvels at a man's faith, how can we adjudicate whom God gives "the Grace" unless God Himself through the Holy Spirit reveals such to us.
It seems very, very imprudent to presume to know whom ones own earthly father loves, let alone to speak of whom God the Father loves - that is bestows the Grace. Unless you mean another sort of Grace in which case, isn't the Grace that the Church bestows up to the heirarchy and us so isn't that above you to speak for all?
It seems to be the wiser course to tread on these things lightly, repent in dust and ashes and let God speak for Himself when He renders judgement. As for me, I am a worm and cannot fathom judging the Pope, though I would say that his theology is not correct where he disagrees with the Church Fathers.
Isn't it preferable to stick to what is commonly knowable and searchable without offending by presuming to know the mind of God?
Also, you speak of what St. Paul saw - were you there with him and did you discuss this with him? Of course not, you infer. So if one infers that St. Paul saw potential, can't you allow for others who are Bishops to also see potential or act in such a manner? When is the last time you spoke to the Pope?
andy holland
sinner
ps. Technically the Pagans were cut off for 5000 years or so - a thousand years are but a day to God according to Holy Scripture.
No I don't support the papacy (outside its Orthodox Context - there are Orthodox Pope Saints). There is a time for peace and a time for war.
I am the one actually advocating discussion and dialogue. The point is that there is absolutely no basis for you or me or anyone to say whom God loves or gives the Grace unless God himself reveals that.
Only a choice few, such as Moses who spoke to God face to face were given that Grace - such as when he wrote of Esau and Jacob.
Even the Son had definite limitations in terms of certain knowledge and this is part of the obedience of the human will to the divine. Even Jesus did not know the day and hour of the final judgement!
How then do you presume on our Father who art in heaven - you who are on Earth and made of dust - to know to whom the Grace is given? And everything I say to you applies to me four fold more - so I am not your judge.
BTW - Christ is Risen - Let God arise and judge the Earth (including the Papacy), for to Him belong all the nations!
andy holland
sinner
ps. I am not looking for an argument - but I would be a poor son and brother who allowed others to presume to loosely speak of those our Father allegedly did not love (through Grace). It is not our place as His children to do so unless we are told to.
AndyHolland wrote:Even the Son had definite limitations in terms of certain knowledge and this is part of the obedience of the human will to the divine. Even Jesus did not know the day and hour of the final judgement!
I don't know where you got this idea, but here is the commentary of Blessed Theophylact on St. Matthew 24: 36 -
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of the heavens, but My Father only.
Here He teaches the disciples not to seek to know things that exceed human knowledge. By saying' 'not the angels" , He restrains them from seeking to learn now that which even the angels do not know. By saying "My Father only", He also prevents them from seeking to learn thereafter. For if He had said, "I know, but I do not wish to tell you," they would have been grieved as though He had disdained them. But now by saying, "Not even the Son knows, but My Father only," He prevents them from asking. It is like a father who will often hold something in his hands and when his children ask for it and he does not want to give it, he hides it and says, "I do not have what you are asking for," and so the children stop crying for it. So too the Lord says, "Even I do not know, but My Father only," in order to put an end to the desire of the apostles to know the day and the hour. That He Himself does know that day and hour is clear from many other things. All that the Father has, belongs to the Son. As the Father has knowledge of the hour, so the Son surely has the same knowledge. It is even more clear from this: how is it possible for the Son to be ignorant of the day, when He knows the things that precede the day, that is, the signs that He has just foretold? For he who has lead another into the vestibule surely knows where the door is as well. But it was for their good that Christ did not open it. For it is never to our benefit to know the time of the end, lest we become lazy. Not knowing, we remain alert.
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Priest Mark Smith
British Columbia
For if He had said, "I know, but I do not wish to tell you," they would have been grieved as though He had disdained them. But now by saying, "Not even the Son knows, but My Father only," He prevents them from asking.
It is one thing to say that it was unknowable, and another to say that he did not know owing to respect (submission of will). It is one thing to say he withheld, and another to intimate he lied which the above spurious quote comes dangerously close to doing.
A definite limit is a definite limit - like a law; Jesus did not abolish the law but fullfilled the Law so he was obedient even to death. Jesus did not jump off buildings either in accordance with the law He fulfilled. Jesus was subject to Gravity as well - the angels would have to bear him up according to Holy Scripture. If Jesus does not transgress the law, why should we jump off a 'reasonable' or 'intellectual' building by saying who does not have 'the Grace' - whatever 'the' means? It is dishonest to say such things and beyond any bounds of propriety, even to speak for earthly fathers in such a way.
I don't know this fellow you quote, however, he is named as "Blessed" not as "Saint". The blessed Augustine is not a Saint either - and for good reason.
The essence of the argument is the same either way - out of respect we who follow the Son of God do not judge or presume things pertaining to the Father - especially Grace - for every good and perfect gift comes from the Father.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If Jesus does not speak of such things, who are we to?
Our Father is the King of the Universe, and He speaks for Himself, or He gives us the Spirit through which to speak.
The assertion made in the sentence I wrote, while poorly written, if read properly with the qualifiers, ascribes a definite limitation in line with obedience. If Jesus is obedient in terms of His knowledge to those limitations that are natural to man - how can we not be obedient within the same bounds?
As a member of so called "World Orthodoxy," I have been trying to understand how people can be so right about the Calendar and so wrong about schism.
This exchange has proved very helpful.
thank you,
andy holland
sinner
Christ is Risen!
Part of this topic has been split because it was moving into a completely different subject. It can be seen here: What does the Incarnate Son of God Know?
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Priest Mark Smith
British Columbia