During the pre-revolutionary period in Russia, there was a rumor that was passed around that buying icons from Old Believers was bad because they painted their icons over images of demons to lure the Orthodox into blasphemy. It proved to be universally untrue. With the rediscovery of Traditional iconography, the Old Believers' icons proved to be the most Orthodox. Likewise, without wishing to offend anyone, I would posit that an icon is going to pass on veneration to the Prototypos regardless of who writes if an Orthodox Christian prays before it. If it is blessed on an Orthodox altar, that further cements my point. I would go so far as to say that the western iconography in Orthodoxy is much more a religious painting than the traditional iconography of groups/people in "schism." Yes, icons are works of prayer, but they are also windows into the eschaton which propel our nous to theoria. And if we are Orthodox, they, the icons serve their purpose no matter who the author is. St. John of San Francisco was once asked which he prefered western or Traditional iconography. He answered, "I pray in front of these and I pray in front of those and my prayers are heard." I think that says it all.
In the LOVE of Christ,
Rostislav
+Archbishop Gregory's iconography both at HTM and afterwards is exquisite.
Archbishop GREGORY of Denver and Colorado
Moderator: Mark Templet
Icons, etc.
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Convertorthojoe
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Re: An Introduction; a convert, RE: Abp Gregory
Greetings to all:
I am a convert to Orthodoxy. I was chrismated into the Serbian Church a few years ago however, the Serbian jurisdiction didn't work for me. I am also uninterested in the affiliation with the WCC. I too seek true orthodoxy, however, what led me here to Euphrosynos Cafe was a search for St. Seraphim of Sarov in Running Springs, Califonia which according to Archimandrite George, is 280 miles from me and is the "closest" to me in terms of an Orthodox Church that isn't involved with the WCC. I came into contact with the Archimandrite because of my interest with Archbishop Gregory's website: www.trueorthodoxy.org.
I tried clicking on a link for St. Seraphim of Sarov that was listed in a post, however, the site isn't coming up; says the site is suspended? It appears that St. Seraphim of Sarov MIGHT be a place for me to visit someday and be in communion with Archbishop Gregory. Since the website is coming up, could someone email or post for me the address for St. Seraphim of Sarov? I have the number that was emailed to me but not the address.
At any rate, my conversion experience has been confusing: When I was chrismated into the Serbian Church, I was not given any certificate that shows that I was chrismated, despite the fact that I had asked serveral times from my parish priest for one. As far as Orthodox online go, MANY weren't happy when I mentioned that I was being recieved through chrismation only; that I should be baptized AND chrismated, which I wasn't. Only chrismation. My RC baptism that I recieved as an infant was acceptable to the Serbian jurisdiction.
My experience there was quite confusing since I discovered from certain members of the diaconate informing me that the Monophysite churches were not considered a big deal and some within the laity recommended that I should be RC?? Had a difficult time making friends. Then there was the issue of distance. That was a few years ago and I haven't attended since.
I have a current interest in seeking communion with Archbishop Gregory. I am reading a book from Dormition Skete regarding the life of the Theotokos and Dormition Skete is in communion with Archbishop Gregory.
It is great to find a place online that isn't attached to the WCC "World Orthodox," sites. I look forward to posting and visiting often.
Respectfully,
Joe B.
Convert, layperson
Pravoslavny Seraphim wrote:Greetings in Christ!
I am a convert to the Faith who has been studying Holy Orthodoxy for more than four years now, and am attending an Antiochian parish (yes, it is New Calendar). The question that bothers me now is the question of where the Orthodox Church can be found, untainted and unchanged. Trouble is, it is impractical at the present time to go to an Old Calendar Church, or to move nearer to one. Admittedly, I have been greatly influenced by Russian spirituality, and have sought to find a place in the Russian Church Abroad, but political issues keep me from doing so.
I have recently been in contact with Abp. Gregory of Dormition Skete, and have read his polemics website, which in many cases is very sound. I was planning on arranging a visit to the Skete, to see if the monastic life is for me. I have not yet been officially enrolled as a catechumen at my parish, though I may within a few weeks, and so have not been received into the Church by baptism and Chrismation. If I were to go to Buena Vista, Abp Greogory seems willing to accept me, formally receive me into the Church, and take me on as a novice. Needless to say, I was very excited to hear this news. But I am becoming concerned with all of the political issues and the seeming fraction of both ROAC and ROCOR, and have trouble deciphering where the Church is truly to be found, and where I might grow spiritually in exploring the monastic life. I have also come across some negative things here in this forum regarding Abp Gregory and Dormition Skete. Surely there are two sides to every story, and both can be convincing enough. So how can one sort out his concerns and make a decision?
Please keep in mind that I am pre-catechumenate, and that I am currently attending a parish within a New Calendar jurisdiction. All Orthodox parishes within a 30-50 mile radius are modernist (I live about 60 miles above San Diego, CA). So I already have to drive a ways, as my parish is 30 miles from me, and further distances are currently impractical for me financially.
Dear Joe,
Ultimately we each make our own decisions...but I would so so strongly like to suggest that you read and inquire from those on this forum who have had personal dealings with "Archbishop Gregory". Not being in the WCC and calling oneself Orthodox while condemning supposed "heretics" as Gregory does on his webpage does not make one Orthodox. Please, inquire with an open heart from some of those here who are no longer with Gregory. And, if Deacon Nikolai doesn't mind me saying so, he would be a good resource to tap...
dear joe,
There are many different jurisdictions as you know. I will tell you my experience as I believe it is relative, Good or Bad. I was first introduced to orthodoxy through the writings of Haille Selassie, last king of Ethiopia, who gave all boasts to christ alone through his holy orthodox church. At this time, I did not know anything about the schizms in the Orthodox Church. I only knew that this was the true church. So I went to find an orthodox church in Seattle as I thought this was the closest one. When I got there, I found it empty but there was one candle lit...When I got back home, I told my friends who were a little tripped out about the whole orthodox, christian thing. But they told me that there was an Orthodox priest in town that I already knew. I went to him and started studying through him. He gave me my first experiences with orthodoxy. A year later I moved to Portland and went to another church. This one was O.C.A. and the priest was a friend of my first priest. As time went on and I discovered more of the politics of the Orthodox world, I discovered that my first priest, a dear friend, was not under a bishop or affiliated with any jurisdiction. I moved again to Reno, looking for an O.C.A. church out here but none to be found. So I checked out the Greeks and the ROCOR but didn't feel right. When I had almost given up, I was told about a Serbian church. This church is my new home and from my understanding, the Serbs are in communion with every right believing church in America. There are those outside SCOBA that I'm sure believe the truth but I went for the majority rule as this is how Ecumenical counsels decided on what was truth. Orthodoxy is what christians have believed everywhere since the beginning, ie: (pentecost). I do not claim to know the whole of it...but if I am in the church than the whole of it ,I will find. I hear that there is some healing going on in the Rocor, Roca situation...But ther are those in Orthodoxy that are not happy with any church because no one is orthodox enough for them. Do we follow the letter of the law like pharisees or the spirit of the law like Christ? When we are harvested, are we wheatberry or chaff?
[/b]Disclaimer: This message does not pertain to those outside America as I have no experience with Churches outside the states...Nor is this a reflection of the beliefs of the Serbian church. I am just a lowly sinner with too many opinions. God Bless +++
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Convertorthojoe
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Диакон Никола wrote:Dear Joe,
Welcome. I do hope you will read more in this thread and other threads about Gregory of Colorado.
How recent did Fr George give you the info that Fr John Claypool in California was with him?
I have to run and have a lot more to say and look forward to hearing more from you.
Greetings:
I believe the last time (I would need to verify with my notes the exact year) if memory serves me correctly, that I spoke with Fr. George would have been in 2003.
I recently bumped into Fr. Dcn. Brad some months back. I don't know who Fr. John Claypool is, sorry.
For the sake of not being onesided, I will try to look at all sides in regards to the subject of Archbishop Gregory.
JB
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Convertorthojoe
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pjhatala wrote:Dear Joe,
Ultimately we each make our own decisions...but I would so so strongly like to suggest that you read and inquire from those on this forum who have had personal dealings with "Archbishop Gregory". Not being in the WCC and calling oneself Orthodox while condemning supposed "heretics" as Gregory does on his webpage does not make one Orthodox. Please, inquire with an open heart from some of those here who are no longer with Gregory. And, if Deacon Nikolai doesn't mind me saying so, he would be a good resource to tap...
Greetings:
I will take your suggestion into consideration. Afterall, 280 miles isn't exactly a walk in the park for me. I'm not in a rush to go over to the church on the one hand, however, on the other hand if based my research and after careful prayer and taking everything under consideration that this is where I am to be...then it's where I will seek communion. However...we will see. At this point, all "anti-Archbishop ?Gregory" lay people and/or clerics are more than welcome to present their case to me as to why I should avoid this jurisdiction.
Respectfully,
Joe B.
At least I'm on the right path...although divided jurisdictions confuse me