MP Delegation To wcc

[Kollyvas]

:ohvey: (ENOUGH OF THIS!!! WHY DO ORTHODOX NEED TO CONSULT WITH heretics ON THE NATURE OF GRACE?!!!! WHERE IS THE ORTHODOX PHRONEMA LACKING?!!!!!!!!!!! +hilarion has never been zealous in witnessing Orthodoxy. WHERE IS IT MENTIONED HOW THEY WILL BE WITNESSING ORTHODOXY?! Let this salesman be held to AT LEAST the standards of the 2000 Sobor!!! This is a moral outrage and the hierarchy MUST stop selling Orthodoxy for dollars or euros. ORTHODOXY IS NOT FOR SALE. This hierarch IS AN EMBARASSMENT TO RUSSIAN ORTHODOXY, our counterpart to the cynical charlatans in rocor. +hilarion should be recalled and replaced with a Traditionalist who gives the wcc the ultimatum, succinctly: "Either we Orthodox are here to witness the Truth and dialogue with those who wish a fuller understanding and unity with the Church, WHICH WE ORTHODOX SOLELY ARE, or we Orthodox are leaving." This is precisely why fr. komarovsky's utterly heinous, vapid and unscrupulous amnesty for ecumenism is spiritually harmful to the Russian church. rocor bears responsibility that this outrage continues to go on. The only thing necessary here is the singing of anathemas.--R)

http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?page=29638

The 9th Assembly of the World Council of Churches begins its work

On 14 February 2006, the 9th Assembly of the World Council of Churches began its work in Porto Alegre, Brazil, addressing the theme ‘God, in your grace transform the world’.

Taking part in the Assembly will be a delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church headed by Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria. The delegation includes 21 clergymen and laymen from Russia, other countries of the CIS and Baltic countries, dioceses and parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate in the far abroad. Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, Chairman of the Department for External Church Relations will visit the Assembly as a guest of honour.

[AndyHolland]

What is wrong with, "God, in your grace transform the world"?

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

What is WRONG & BLASPHEMOUS is that Orthodox representatives will be CONSULTING with heretics on the meaning of grace, WHILE NOT WITNESSING THE FAITH, ie GRACE BEING THE LIFE IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. This is the penultimate definition of the heresy of ecumenism, viz. using syncretist formulas, which presuppose Orthodoxy to be morally equivalent to heresy, to arrive at quasi-dogmatic statements. ORTHODOX DOCTRINE IS EXPRESSED BY THE PATRISTIC MIND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IS SOVEREIGN!!! This is an outrage and Orthodox participation without active witness is grave sin EVEN IF "separate statements are issued." ORTHODOX WITNESS, ESPECIALLY ON THE NATURE OF GRACE PRESUPPOSES EXCLUSIVITY--to present it as an addendum to heretical babel is a shameless and blasphemous sacriledge!!! True Orthodox witness WOULD BE THERE TO TEACH, not "consult" and then be relegated to a corner as some sort of museum relic...
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky
Why is it wrong for Orthodoxy to insist on being the Church? Every Orthodox Liturgy is a TRUE ECUMENICAL ASSEMBLY.

[AndyHolland]

The title, "God, in your grace transform the world" seems to be on the mark. After all, we ask that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."

Do we automatically assume that our Orthodox representatives are going to say and do bad things? Judas represented less than 9% of the disciples.

Maybe we should be looking for God's grace all the more diligently. Discussions of God's grace could be on anything created by God for instance - we could speak of God's grace in biology without revealing mysteries. God's grace is abundant and everywhere - St. Seraphim of Sarov used to call everybody he saw a Joy! To relegate God's grace to a narrow meaning is to deny part of the Incarnation - and that is heresy. God's grace is abundant and everywhere. It is blasphemous to put God in a small box of our own invention (God designed the Ark - He adds to her daily). The universe belongs to God! The Orthodox see God's grace everywhere.

Jesus searched the houses of tax collectors and sinners for the lost sheep. Maybe these representatives are bringing in some lost sheep here and there. Is it wise to assume that bad things will be said and done?

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

The question you have to ask yourself is:

IS ORTHODOXY THE CHURCH?

If you answer "yes," then ask yourself WHY SHOULDN'T THE CHURCH BE WITNESSING, instead of "discussing" or "consulting" upon grace WITH THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH?! HOW IS THAT ORTHODOX WITNESS?!

Moreover, ACQUAINT yourself with the reasons why ORTHODOXY IS THE TRUTH and why such "ecumenism" is heresy.

If you answer "no," then you are not Orthodox and all further discussion is moot.

ORTHODOXIA I THANATOS!
Rostislav

Reiterating FOR THE SAKE OF CRITICAL THINKING:

What is WRONG & BLASPHEMOUS is that Orthodox representatives will be CONSULTING with heretics on the meaning of grace, WHILE NOT WITNESSING THE FAITH, ie GRACE BEING THE LIFE IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. This is the penultimate definition of the heresy of ecumenism, viz. using syncretist formulas, which presuppose Orthodoxy to be morally equivalent to heresy, to arrive at quasi-dogmatic statements. ORTHODOX DOCTRINE IS EXPRESSED BY THE PATRISTIC MIND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IS SOVEREIGN!!! This is an outrage and Orthodox participation without active witness is grave sin EVEN IF "separate statements are issued." ORTHODOX WITNESS, ESPECIALLY ON THE NATURE OF GRACE PRESUPPOSES EXCLUSIVITY--to present it as an addendum to heretical babel is a shameless and blasphemous sacriledge!!! True Orthodox witness WOULD BE THERE TO TEACH, not "consult" and then be relegated to a corner as some sort of museum relic...
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky
Why is it wrong for Orthodoxy to insist on being the Church? Every Orthodox Liturgy is a TRUE ECUMENICAL ASSEMBLY.

[AndyHolland]

The question you have to ask yourself is:
IS ORTHODOXY THE CHURCH?

YES!

If you answer "yes," then ask yourself WHY SHOULDN'T THE CHURCH BE WITNESSING, instead of "discussing" or "consulting" upon grace WITH THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH?! HOW IS THAT ORTHODOX WITNESS?!

From what you provided, I don't know what the case is - what are these people going to be speaking on? Unless you witness, how can you say they are not going to witness? How do you know? I am simple minded. What are the true facts?

Grace is everywhere - this I know from observation. Therefore, how can speaking of God's grace be blasphemous? It is not like they are going to be taking Holy Communion together and revealing the Holy Mystery to enemies. Or are they? Do you have witnesses to such?

thanks,

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

Quote...

Further, I do not yet have an understanding of why ecumenism is heresy. After all, the Church is governed by Ecumenical Counsels. Faith seems to go the other direction - that is, when I read the Gospels, I read of Jesus visiting tax collectors and sinners, and healing a woman's children who admits she is a dog.

Do we have to proclaim heretics as dogs, and allow their faith to bring them to that conclusion? On the other hand, Jesus was available on the road.

...

If you believe Orthodoxy is THE Church, by admission, if you are honest, you admit others are not THE Church. Yet you seem hesitant in saying that for fear of seeming perjorative or bigoted. The site orthodoxinfo.com can give you concise and well-reasoned arguments as to WHY ecumenism is heresy, and the Fathers and even your "evangelical" conception of Christ Jesus are not absent. In a nutshell, Orthodoxy, being the Church, bears sovereign and exclusive witness of Truth. AUTHENTIC Orthodox participation in the ecumenical movement necessarily then means witnessing that Truth to others, not consulting on it to see "if its relevent" as in this instance. The whole idea of a "world council of churches" presuposes more than one church and, indeed, the entire basis on which the organization is predicated expresses itself as "overcoming a sinful division which does not reach up to heaven which affirms a unity not realized on earth, of which each member is a constituent but not a sole representative of." What more needs be said. To consult with heretics on grace instead of WITNESSING IT, as the 2000 Sobor called for, implies two base and odious and sacriledgious considerations:
1). The Orthodox witness is insufficoent, and, hence, somehow, heretical witnesses of "grace" can "complement" it.
2). What the Canons and Fathers have taught heretofore is no longer relevent. Orthodoxy must break from that for new Canons and Fathers.
Accepting these things in anyway means denying Orthodox eccelesiology and affirming heresy...

While there were Ecumenical Councils, they were Councils of the CHURCH and not of heretics. Councils which confessed Orthodoxy, instead of ignorance of it.
Orthodoxia I thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

Again reiterating for due consideration and appealing to a modicum of Orthodox understanding:

What is WRONG & BLASPHEMOUS is that Orthodox representatives will be CONSULTING with heretics on the meaning of grace, WHILE NOT WITNESSING THE FAITH, ie GRACE BEING THE LIFE IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. This is the penultimate definition of the heresy of ecumenism, viz. using syncretist formulas, which presuppose Orthodoxy to be morally equivalent to heresy, to arrive at quasi-dogmatic statements. ORTHODOX DOCTRINE IS EXPRESSED BY THE PATRISTIC MIND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IS SOVEREIGN!!! This is an outrage and Orthodox participation without active witness is grave sin EVEN IF "separate statements are issued." ORTHODOX WITNESS, ESPECIALLY ON THE NATURE OF GRACE PRESUPPOSES EXCLUSIVITY--to present it as an addendum to heretical babel is a shameless and blasphemous sacriledge!!! True Orthodox witness WOULD BE THERE TO TEACH, not "consult" and then be relegated to a corner as some sort of museum relic...
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky
Why is it wrong for Orthodoxy to insist on being the Church? Every Orthodox Liturgy is a TRUE ECUMENICAL ASSEMBLY.