ROCOR Anathema Against ecumenism (1983)

[George Australia]

Your ecclesiology is not Orthodox and you believe in a different church: MINE IS THE CHURCH OF THE FATHERS, THE BODY OF CHRIST.......Go and pray with your pope to heretical demoniacs you are now calling "saints"...

Can you tell me what you know of my ecclesiology to make such unchristian, uncharitable remarks, and passing judgement contrary to the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

I consider it an honour to be falsey slandered, and persecuted, as are the heirarchs of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which you seem to have schismed from.

[Kollyvas]

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/Orth-Cath_Agreed.aspx

...The Orthodox and Catholic members of our Consultation acknowledge, in both of our traditions, a common teaching and a common faith in one baptism, despite some variations in practice which, we believe, do not affect the substance of the mystery...

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http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1474

...the inclusion of two Greek Catholics in the “Synaxis of the Carpathian Saints” issued by Metropolitan Nicholas of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the USA. ..

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http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_rome.aspx

False Union With Rome
Some of our hierarchs and "professional theologians" today are saying that the Orthodox Church has never "officially declared" Roman Catholicism to be heretical. They call Rome a "Sister Church" (See the "Balamand Agreement", below) and will tell you that there is a "new openness" to Rome, that we "understand things better in light of new developments" (e.g., "eucharistic ecclesiology"). For example, here is a quote from Bishop Maximos of Pittsburgh, a person whom many consider to be one of the most conservative and erudite bishops in the GOA. The quote is from his Foreward to The Quest for Unity: Orthodox and Catholics in Dialogue (Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir Seminary Press and Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 1996), ed. by John and John Borelli:

Common prayer and participation as far as possible in the prayer life of the other church has also been part of our lives together in dialogue... We have responded to the work of the Joint Theological Commission for the dialogue between our two sister churches, the "two lungs" of the one Church of Christ. These two have to synchronize anew their breathing, so that the Church of Christ may begin breathing properly again. (p. 3). ..

And the response detailing the extent of concern regarding Orthodox ecclesiology:

George Australia wrote:
This may be uncanonical, but it's hardly an endorsement of the Branch Theory. Praying with people outside of the Church doesn't mean you consider them inside the Church- especially considering the fact that certain heirarchs have prayed with those who are not even Christian. Uncanonical: yes, heretical: no.

I have acknowledged two days ago that uncannonical practices have taken place. So please don’t give me more of the same. Just show me how someone undertaking uncannonical practices is an heretical doctrine.

YET THE CANONS READ:
..On Praying with Heretics
Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles
Related Articles
The Sigillon of 1583
St. Theodore of Studios on Canons and Schism

"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

Canon IX of Laodicia (Also approved by the Ecumenical Synods)
"Concerning the fact that those belonging to the Church must not be allowed to go visiting the cemeteries or the so called martyria of any heretics, for the purpose of prayer or of cure, but, on the contrary, those who do so, if they be among the faithful, shall be excluded from communion for a time until they repent and confess their having made a mistake, when they may be readmitted to communion."

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia
"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

Unimportant it seems to you, further:

I consider it an honour to be falsey slandered, and persecuted, as are the heirarchs of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which you seem to have schismed from...

(Indeed, evidence is slander...)

Your ecclesiological emphasis is easily gleaned.
R
That's it. Our conversation is over.

[George Australia]

The text of the joint declaration says : "We agree to recognize the Scrament of Baptism administerd in each other's church and to promote the use of the common Certificate of Baptism"

I can see what you mean, but surely you can see that a distinction is made since the baptisms performed in other Churches do not admit one to the Orthodox Church, as I said before? (prior to the digression of the thread).

[Kollyvas]

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/Orth-Cath_Agreed.aspx

...The Orthodox and Catholic members of our Consultation acknowledge, in both of our traditions, a common teaching and a common faith in one baptism, despite some variations in practice which, we believe, do not affect the substance of the mystery. We are therefore moved to declare that we also recognize each other's baptism as one and the same. This recognition has obvious ecclesiological consequences. The Church is itself both the milieu and the effect of baptism, and is not of our making. This recognition requires each side of our dialogue to acknowledge an ecclesial reality in the other, however much we may regard their way of living the Church's reality as flawed or incomplete. In our common reality of baptism, we discover the foundation of our dialogue, as well as the force and urgency of the Lord Jesus prayer "that all may be one." Here, finally, is the certain basis for the modern use of the phrase, "sister churches." ...

See Also:
http://www.orthodox.net/ecumenism/2000- ... ximos.html
...
You cannot go back in terms of calling the other Christian Churches "sister churches," and you cannot go back in terms of recognizing one another's baptism and the subsequent membership in the one church of Christ, as much and as far there is only One Baptism, if it is celebrated according to the faith in the Holy Trinity and the age-old practice of the church with triple immersion and emersion, or its equivalent. ..

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/m ... reply.aspx
...True, a contemporary rejection of the Roman baptism by the Great Church of Constantinople for pastoral reasons has taken place. But this was corrected and readdressed, as soon as the cause of this rejection disappeared.

"Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, the two ‘sister churches’ of old continue to recognize one another’s baptism, as well as the other sacraments celebrated in these churches."

7) The rebaptism by Orthodox of baptized heterodox Christians is inspired by "narrow-mindedness, fanaticism and bigotry." ...

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/c ... _luth.aspx
...It is easy to become unsettled, if not outraged, at the blindness of the Orthodox ecumenists, who use the platform of love to slap at their own brothers and to put forth cliches and epithets that are essentially meaningless and which show a lapse both in an Orthodox understanding of the history of the Church and in simple logic. Seeing otherwise intelligent, learned, and certainly well-intentioned men and women come to such a state, however, we should bring to mind immediately what blindness is. It something unnatural, imposed by disease and deformity. It is not a personal fault, as such. Seeing this, we should come to pity the Orthodox ecumenists. And in this pity, we should redouble our efforts to live our Faith in such a way that the light of Christ might shine through us and enlighten even those who revile us in the name of ecumenical love...

[Jean-Serge]

The text of the joint declaration says : "We agree to recognize the Scrament of Baptism administerd in each other's church and to promote the use of the common Certificate of Baptism"

I can see what you mean, but surely you can see that a distinction is made since the baptisms performed in other Churches do not admit one to the Orthodox Church, as I said before? (prior to the digression of the thread).

Well if you recognize the sacramet of Baptism, this means you recognize that the Catholics are baptized for their salvation and you fall under 1983 anathema and you do not abide by the canon of the apostles who says that any priest who recognise the baptism of heretic should be deposed.

The extract of the Thessaloniki conference, from an anti-ecumenist (although world orthodox) lecturer was showing there are strange things occuring in Antioch and Alexandria... By poersonal knowledge, I can assure you that people commune there, in any church. DE FACTO THEY PRACTICE INTERCOMMUNION...

[George Australia]

Well if you recognize the sacramet of Baptism, this means you recognize that the Catholics are baptized for their salvation ...

This is just another interpretation, just like the author of "Ecumenism-Path to Perdition's" interpretation on the "meaning" of the Balamand Statement. You cannot say: "I know that you beleive X because you said you believe Y...." You can only know that someone believes X if they say they beleive X.

[1937 Miraculous Cross]

dear George,

you wrote:

The Balamand Agreement DOES NOT permit the partaking of Scaraments in other Churches undaer ANY circumstances.

I stand corrected. I recall reading something that stated under a situation when an Orthodox person needed pastoral help and no Orthodox clergy was present a RC priest could be used...and vise versa. I recall the discussion was in regards to a funeral. anyway, since this is definitly not in the full text of the Balamand Accord, I have no idea what i had read and now question if this was real. So, thanks for pointing this out.

in Christ,
Nectarios