Donatism

[Joseph]

Dear All:

I grow increasingly concerned with what I see in the Orthodox community here in America. I was originally Chrismated in the GOA, but I came to embrace ROCOR because of my extreme aversion to ecumenism. Archbishop Isaiah is beyond any doubt profoundly more holy a man than I am. That being said, Fr. William Christ (GOA) is a much holier man than I am as well. And, even though I left the GOA I never saw Fr. Christ do anything wrong. I even went to an interfaith council meeting just to see what it was. Still, I found the priest as innocent as I was of any heretical act. In fact, he was even more innocent. I was searching for wrongdoing as he witnessed to the lost sheep. And I injured my soul that day.

Now I am in the ROCOR, but I find Orthodox people everywhere who are so demanding of piety and holiness in their priests and bishops that they leave their jurisdictions, some even end up praying at home, alone, on Sunday morning. Would these people become hermits? Hardly. That would mean abandoning their error to join an existing Church. Is it true that he who eats alone, the devil takes? Let us reconsider ourselves as a first measure before reconsidering our faith that we may not judge those who have sworn to minister to us for the sake of the salvation of our souls.

In Christ:
Joseph the bumkin

[Justin Kissel]

Words we should all consider thoughtfully...

This is an area where you nailed me right in the head (or better yet, the soul). Thank you.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

As everyone knows, Donatism is the denial that a priest is a priest because of an apparent lack of holiness. This doesn't seem to be what we are talking about.

Perhaps it is not wrong to search for a good spiritual father just as an ill person might search for the best doctor. But everyone has to realize sooner or later that a doctor by himself doesn't heal anybody - it is the medicines and thearapies he uses along with the persons own will to heal himself.

I agree with your main point, Fr. "William" Christ may have been very good man at heart. But consider Joseph that you primarily follow your bishop because it is he who you commemorate. Fr. "William" Christ and his disciples declare they share the same faith as his bishop at each service. And he declares that he shares the same faith as Bartholomew.

Now would you go to a doctor who practices a different medicine than all true doctors in history? Instead of healing you, they send you to a Botox party.

[Joseph]

Very sharp. The faithful on both sides of the Modernism issue have the same complaint, which is that the pastors of the other side put too great a burden on them. From my perspective, it is a great burden indeed to have one's hierarchs perpetrating scandal. To commune with or otherwise honor these men makes one feel like an accomplice. What kind of shepherd allows wolves to take a measure of his flock in the name of balance, or for any reason? It certainly feels as though they do not care at all about us.

Father Vassiliou Christou (as he is listed in the Greek clergy directory, and rightly so, he IS Greek), other than the fact that he honors his hierarchs, has not said or done anything heretical to my knowledge. I appreciate your trying to empower me, but I judged a good man wrongly and that is not Christian behavior.

Now. On the other end of this spectrum of opinion is the notion that traditionalist Churches as they are called are oppressive to their flock. Although I myself do not subscribe to this opinion I know of a few who do. I once had an "Antiochian" deacon tell me that he "like[ed] the ROCOR," but that "if you look at them rooster-eyed, you're out of communion with them." To what that refers, I am not sure.

Monasteries, it is said, are for the "weak." I admit that I myself am too weak to attend a GOA parish and all that entails. Even though the GOA's Eucharist is salvific, I nevertheless experience too much temptation while I am there even in the very temple of worship. It is too much for me to bear; though if I were stronger in my faith or more resourceful I could handle it. So, I am not a protestant, and I do not repent me of my Orthodoxy.

What is good about traditional Orthodoxy, from my point of view, is that for the most part very clear lines are drawn between the sacred and the profane. The Modernist project, if you will, is to eliminate all boundaries and borders so that all ideas and acts may be expressed without the slightest concern for rules or standards. This lack of ethics, and more especially the embracement of contradiction in the name of tolerance, is what frightens and confuses many of us who are trying to flee pollution rather than absorb it. However, to be truly free of pollution we must not take a posture of haughtiness or self-righteousness with regard to clergy of other jurisdictions. Unless the ROCOR has, as a single coherent insitution, declared the sacrements of the OCA, GOA, et cetra invalid, I must believe that the Triune God is still at work within those Churches. Yes, even if I cannot in good conscience attend such services myself.

In Christ:
Joseph the bumkin

[Julianna]

The faith of a priest is the faith of his bishop. A bishop being in communion with another bishop means they share the same faith. so a good priest under a heretical bishop or under a bishop in communion with a heretical bishop is thus deemed in heresy

[Joseph]

The center of Orthodoxy is the Eucharist. Not even the Antiochian Church has been denounced (at least publicly) as being devoid of Grace by any Episcopal See. There has been no decree by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church against these "heretical" Orthodox. Not yet anyway.
But, until it happens, I personally must continue to ponder the words of St. Paul:

I Corinthians, 3

Code: Select all

 "...For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? ..."

Who among us is fit to openly look down upon the holy chalice to call it bad, an heretical Eucharist? I personally grow tired of distant Patriarchs and Bishops who would make themselves popes over all. For such is the error of Rome. This medieval thinking is backward. We are the Church. There is no room for factions or cults.

In Christ:

Joseph