Old Believers

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

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Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/faq.html

What is the difference between the old rite and new rite of the Russian Church?

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 Through the rites of the Church -- that is, by the various external actions such as bows, singing, and the making of the sign of the Cross, the Church expresses its belief in Jesus Christ and glorifies Him and the saints, and nourishes the spiritual life of the people.  There are undoubtedly many ways of expressing the same thing, and the Church of Christ has a treasury of beautiful rituals which express its Orthodox Faith in a variety of ways.

 When we speak of the "New" and "Old" rites, we are speaking of a phenomenon of the Russian Orthodox Church that originated in the 17th century due to the reforms of Patriarch Nikon.  The revised rites he introduced conformed more or less to of almost all the other national Orthodox Churches, but it differed considerably from the ancient practices of the Russian Church.  Many factors, not the least of which were the Patriarch's powerful personality and manner of enforcing the new rites, created a great schism in the Russian Church which has not effectively been healed to this day.

 Some of the many differences in the rites which have been explosive in the past are: the making of the sign of the Cross, the number of loaves used at the Eucharist, unison vs. harmony singing, the shape of the bishop's staff, the number of prostrations and bows to be made during the services, the manner of icon-painting, the singing of Alleluia, and many others.

 Our parishioners realize that although the rites of the Church express its dogmas and are not to be treated lightly, the rites themselves are a means to an end, not dogmas in themselves, and the exact same dogma can be expressed in many ways.  Although we love and cherish the old rites of the Russian Church, we do not reject those who practice the new ones, and they in turn have shown much interest and respect for our customs.  The pitiful misunderstandings and persecutions of former years have now been replaced with a realization that the Orthodox Church has a precious and sacred treasure in its many beautiful ancient rites.

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What is the significance of the beard worn by many men of your church?

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 The Orthodox Church looks upon the beard as the mark of a Christian man, in that it is the natural appearance of man created by God, and also the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Likewise, the uncut hair of women as their particular glory.  The general attitude of our church is that anything that alters this image in which we were created --  for example, masks, shaving, makeup, and such things -- is not appropriate for Christians.  Lamentably, the younger generations of our Church are neglecting this apostolic tradition and following the styles of the world even when not pressured by concerns of employment and the like.  There is still, however, a deep awareness of this revered tradition that former generations  have instilled on our community, and most of our parishioners --  at least in their later years -- carefully observe it.  Other Orthodox communities have not been able to preserve this tradition at all, and even the clergy often appear beardless.

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What is the significance of the special clothing worn to church services
by your parishioners?

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 Our parishioners wear special clothes when attending church services, the style of which was the normal mode of dress for all Russians before the time of Tsar Peter I.  The Old Believers rejected the western style of clothing (which included shaving and styling the hair), and retained their traditional form of dress at the expense of much social discomfort and persecution.  In more isolated and agricultural communities of Old Believers, this manner of dress is still faithfully observed today.  Our parishioners, however, are very much a part of the Erie community, holding positions in business, education, healthcare, industry, etc., and wear the traditional garb only for church services.  Our custom of these special church clothes has insured that our parishioners are always properly and modestly dressed for worship in the house of God.  In most Orthodox parishes, however, there is no particular rule for dress for the laity apart from modesty.  Our parish recently decided to make the traditional church clothes optional, in order not to intimidate those who would desire to become Orthodox Christians but were not of Russian heritage.

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Why must women be veiled when entering the church?

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 In the Orthodox Church it has always been customary for the heads of men to be uncovered and for women to be veiled.  Only men who have been set aside for the service of God, (e.g. bishops, monks, and other clergy) are permitted to wear the special head coverings of their respective offices.  In his admonition to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul says "every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head," and later he asks, "is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?" (I Corinthians 11:5,18)  The veiling of women, then, is a custom that has come down to us from the time of the apostles.  For a woman to be unveiled in our Church or for a man to wear a hat would be a sign of great disrespect.
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

From the Peasants thread in the Praxis section:

Here are links to Old Believer / Old Ritualist/ Old Rite Russian Orthodox Christians who set up communities that often had communal farms:

The History of Oregon's Old Believer Community

Wandering Old Believers Find a Home in Alaska
Old Believers in Alaska
Nikolaevsk Community Overview
Nikolaevsk Community Water System PDF

Here is an interesting site about the perspective of a non-Orthodox who moved to the town of Nikolaevsk because the people were real and the big city crime drove them from city-living. http://www.etext.org/Zines/TwilightTime ... 4hist.html

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The Old Believers' Lestovkas

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

And some information about the Old believer Prayer Rope, the Lestovka:
http://euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3647

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Post by Edward »

During my first trip to Russia, in 1998, I had the great blessing to spend time in a village outside of Moscow called Mikhailovskaya Sloboda, which was the first Edinoveri Community. These are Old Ritualists who returned into the fold of the Russian Orthodox Church in the 19th century. Until the Revolution, there were over 600 Edinoveri communities in the Russian Empire!

Having seen traditional Greek worship, I have to say that the Old Rites are closer to the traditional liturgical practices of the Greek Orthodox Church. I find that highly ironic because Patriarch Nikon's reforms were meant to conform the Rites of the Russian Church to those of the Greek. Unfortunately, the schism weakened the Church's position in society and divided believers. This eventually gave Peter the Great the opportunity to abolish the Patriarchate and replace it with the Holy Synod, modelled after the Lutheran Church of Sweden, and functioning as a department of the Russian Imperial Government. Ofcourse, Catherine the Great's influence on the Russian Church brought a great deal of Westernization in Hymnody, Art, Architecture, and even theology. One only has to compare the Churches in Moscow (or any Medieval Russian city like Vladimir, Suzdal, Great Novgorod, Pskov, or Smolensk) with those of Petersburg. Saint Peter and Paul Church looks so Latin that when the Russian government offered to return it to the Moscow Patriarchate, their response was 'thanks but no thanks'.

At this village, most of their books were hand written! Vigil took 5-6 hours, Liturgy 3-4 hours. I would one day really like to visit the Old Rite Church in Erie and hear the services in English.

Edward

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Post by SouthernOrthodox »

Edward, if you have the opportunity to visit Erie, do. Truly an experience

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from: Old Believer Monks of ND

Post by Stavrophore Monk John »

Dear in Christ:

Glory to God. "Lord Isus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner, Amin.

The Endoverie are old believers in russia who came back to the Moscow Patriarchate, in union with them, whereas the Moscow Old Believers under the late Metropolitan Andrian of Moscow, never came back into the jurisdiction of the MP, the Old Believers of Erie, Pa. were priestless congregation at one time, became Priested, and went with ROCOR. We,
our group was with Oregon Old Believers, they do not believe the new rite efficatious at all, but ROCOR does believe both rites are valid.

While we do not agree with ROCOR, in uniting with MP, we still love them as Brethren, and have high regards for Fr. Pimen, Fr. Theodore and Bishop Daniel. We do believe both Rites are efficacious and valid, whereas our former Hierarchs of Oregon believe only in the Old Rite.

We pray for all concerned, that one day all in "world Orthodoxy" would convert to true Orthodoxy, but it seems as if we are indeed in the last days of the world......old believers were at one time considered schismatic, many write us and say so, but not any more as the anathemas against us have been lifted years ago...so please pray for us and do send food, please do, some have asked us if you can: yes, we accept, bEANS, SPAGHETTI, LENTILS, ALL DRIED NON PERISHABLE ITEMS. God Bless You.

Holy Nativity of the Mother of God Skete
Rural Route #1-Box 35A
Voltaire, ND 58792

some have asked us if they bought lestovka from eastern supply and then send to us so we could resell on website, please do, charcoal, incense, etc. If one wants to donate to us, please do send all religious items you purchase so we can resell on our website....

We still have not heard from anyone regarding the website, who can create one for us, please, we beg you, help us if you are able to do this, we need to be self sufficient. We are so grateful for the help you are given us. Most Old Believers are quite apart and many will not even be near you, or even eat off same plates, they will give you seperate plates...that is not our position, WE ARE NOT ECUMENICAL, but do believe in showing love to all, especially the traditional groups: ROAC, ROCIE, old calendar groups, etc...but we still pray for those in ROCOR, and other groups, how can one not pray for everyone for we are in the great apostasy, that is our belief. Please know we ask you help us with our electric bill and phone bill. If you can help us set up website, we can survive..IF YOU DO NOT HELP US, ANYONE , IN THIS REGARD, WE WILL BE IN DIRE NEED AGAIN..PLEASE HELP TWO POOR OLD MONKS AND MAY GOD BLESS YOU.

IN THE LOVE OF OUR cHRIST God, the all Pure Mother of God, the Theotokos, and all or God Bearing Saints...WE ARE DEEPLY GRATEFUL....(The fuel bill in velva, Farmers union oil) was paid in full yesterday. Please don't think : "well, they are getting help, and so I will not help...we need YOUR ALMS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, AND HIS HOLY ORTHODOX TRUE CHURCH...PLEASE, DON'T DISDAIN US POOR BEGGARS AND TURN US AWAY. Believe me, we never thought we would be beggars, or ask for alms, but we must, and we want to have a hand up, to get on our feet, not to stay perpetually begging, no, this is not right, we want to be self sufficient, over the years we have opened our doors to the poor, the homeless, the hungry, and NEVER TURNED ANYONE AWAY.

Please, do not disdain the beggar as the prayerbook says, but for the love you bear Our Lord and His all Pure Mother, help us with your prayers and alms...THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS YOU. 4 PEOPLE HAVE HELPED US NOW.....FOR THAT WE GIVE THANKS IN DEEPEST OF GRATITUDE.

God Bless You.
Your Brethren:
Holy Nativity of the Mother of God Skete-ND
Stavrophore Monk Fr. John and Brotherhood.

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Lestovkas

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Orthodox6 wrote:

First off, thank you for posting so much information about the Old Believers. Some of the links were new to me, so I appreciate adding them to those I had.

Occasionally, Eastern Christian Supply has had lestovki in stock.

  1. Please feel free to share the info you have here in this thread please.

  2. That is where I got mine. :-)

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