The choice should be clear

Nikodemus · Post by **Nikodemus** » Thu 29 September 2005 5:50 pm

The more I read, the more the clouds of my understanding disappears and with Gods grace I can see things more clearly. The choice in Orthodoxy today are generally between the followers of two patriarchs, Patriarch Melitius Metaxakis and Patriarch Sergej and those who historically are in communion with them and their successors, or those who kept the original orthodox faith and for this sake faced tribulation and hatred of Godless regimes in Greece and Russia. The choice is between rightousness or hipocracy, since how can you not be a hipocrit when you chose to close your eyes to the indifferentism of ecumenism, and atheistic control on the ane hand and a pure confession on the other. It was natural for Meletius Metaxakis to accept the Living Church in Russia as the true Church, because he must have felt a spiritual connection with this church and his own wish to deconstruct the Greek orthodox patriarchates and introduce non orthodox teachings and values. Values that you also can find if you read the masonic printings in, for example, France Grand Orient organ: l. Humanisme!!!

What communism is to society, looking for a Universal Brotherhood in equality and justice (communistic justice), ecumenism is to the Church, looking for a Universal Brotherhood not in faith but in a new Creed of humanism and a humanistic Christ. Both offer the Peace of the World and not the Peace of Christ.

In the jurisdictions that historically are in communion with Meleitus Metaxakis and Patriarch Sergej, we see bishops who pray with buddhists, hindus and the Pope and at the same time condemns those who wants to cling to the teaching of saints like St Markus of Ephesus, St Tikhon, St Joseph of Petrograd, St Gregorius Palamas and many others. What church is then the true Church? Is it a quantitative question? I mean, do we chose jurisdicition because of the Majority of Bishops and faithful, or do we rather follow the minority. If we look on Christ crucifiction we see the majority who wants to cricify him, and the minority who dont.

Priest Siluan · Post by **Priest Siluan** » Thu 29 September 2005 9:32 pm

Nikodemus:

Really it is a correct and clear thought, it is simply that there is not worse blind man than that that one doesn't want to see it.

SouthernOrthodox · Fri 30 September 2005 10:06 am

I am with you my friend Nikodemus, up until the first sentence. Yes the choice is clear. One Holy Orthodox Church. The problem has always been and will continue to be an interpretation. Please forgive my analogy, The Protestant Church has always disagree with one another and what do they do, break off and start their own movement. Unfortunate for them they were wrong from the very start so its a non-issue. My point is this, Orthodoxy was right from the start, yes, people get mad, don't agree, etc, etc and charge or worst yet, start there own Jurisdiction and claim Apostolic rights and honors as being the "One True Church". This to me is a non-seneschal use of the Holy Fathers. Before I am cast to the fiery furnace, I don't agree with non-orthodox being able to serve or partake of the Divine Services, but are they not welcomed in the church. In my profession, I have been able to attend many services of different faiths, some close to what I was used to and others way out there. Wouldn't it make sense for us to say we belong to "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" as in maybe the Creed, and really mean it. Just my two cents worth.

Edward · Post by **Edward** » Fri 30 September 2005 11:04 am

It is not black and white at all. It is rather ironic that the "traditionalists" who so harshly judge the Moscow Patriarchate these days do so so comfortably. None of you were there, none of you experienced the horror of the revolution and the confusion that followed afterwards. I have the highest regard for the hierarchs of ROCOR who came to North America and Europe after the Revolution. But, many of them came from aristocratic backgrounds and their hatred of the situation came from the fact that their homes and possessions were taken by the Bolshevik government. Many were also part of the White Movement, which was eventually driven out of Crimea, so they were bitter over also over a military defeat. Ofcourse, it was horrible for them, but they got out, which was a much better fate than those who had to stay and endure Lenin, Stalin, WW2, and so on and so on.
So, put yourself in Metropolitan Sergius' shoes and ask yourself if you wouldn't have done worse. Oh I forget, Old Calendarists and ROAC and FROC, and ROCIE-V people are so full of grace that they don't sin!
I once asked a Priest in a village outside of Moscow about Patriarch Sergius and he told me a very moving story. The Soviets wrote the declaration and pressured him to sign it. He initially refused so they put him in prison. Then they threatened to kill him if he didn't sign the declaration. He still didn't sign so he went back to prison. Finally, they told him that if he didn't sign the declaration they would execute 5 million faithful. Imagine being told that! So, he knew what would happen, he would be denounced by those worshipping secretly and the unity of Russian Orthodoxy abroad would probably fracture but he rationed, 'better for my soul to be damned for this that to risk damning the souls of any of those 5 million they would execute.' So, he signed the declaration. Now they saddest part comes at the end of his life. His cell attendant noticed during the days up to his death that he was serving pannikhidas for himself. He cell attendant asked him why he was doing this. Patriarch Sergius replied, "because when I die, no one will do this for me." It is very sad. Our Lord commands us not to judge anyone. Furthermore, Patriarch Alexis II has said on a number of occasions that the declaration is not an official policy or doctrine of the Russian Orthodox Church, nor does it speak for it. The declaration is highly flawed and is not in keeping with the mind of the Church. So it is very understandable why many condemned the declaration. Certainly, the Soviet government played up the document too in order to make the world believe that religious freedom existed in the Soviet Union. It is rather ironic that the one time people believed the Soviet government was when they told everyone that the Russian Orthodox Church would be working with them.
I have been coming to Russia every year since 1998. I lived in Moscow from 2000-2002 and from August 2004 to the present time. The Moscow Patriarchate is the Church in Russia. These other groups are barely visible. I am not saying everything is perfect there, but Churches, Monasteries, Seminaries, and Schools are being built and/or restored. Most Orthodox bookstores and kiosks I have been to sell plenty of literature against Syncretic ecumenism and modernism. The range of apologetic materials is amazing as well as those concerning Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and other religions. Just to look at their contents, one would easily conclude that the Orthodox Church believes itself (and rightly so) to be the only absolute truth. I have noticed that monasteries and most parishes in Moscow have daily Vespers and Orthros and people go. I had a problem of trying to find a Church that was not overcrowded and I have been to services in Churches that were so jam packed full of people that you cannot move even to make the sign of the cross. Try going to confession during Saturday night Vigil or Sunday Liturgy and you will find yourself waiting in a very long time, even when there are 3-4 Priests hearing confessions. Go visit Holy Trinity-Saint Sergius Lavra or Optina or Valaam or Diveyevo, and you will see thriving monastic communities. I remember a few years ago when the relics of Saint Pantelemon were brought to Moscow. I venerated them at Novo-Dievichy Convent. A few days later I was walking past Christ the Saviour Cathedral and there are scores of people coming from all over Russia to venerate the relics. I walked towards the front of the line and found out that people there had been waiting 27 hours. This is where true Orthodoxy in Russia lies. These "traditionalist" "true/genuine" groups, like the Old Believers before them, only continue to split into further groups. It is on the internet where they thrive the most.

Edward Henderson
geh8988@gmail.com

SouthernOrthodox · Fri 30 September 2005 11:17 am

Very well said Edward. I believe the time is coming soon, where Russia again will be the main-stay and her children from all over the world will once again look to her. I wish you safe travels.

ioannis · Post by **ioannis** » Fri 30 September 2005 1:30 pm

Edward,

You compare to "Traditionalists" to Protestants, because (and as if) "they break off and start their own jurisdictions".

But as you admit, Protestants "break off" and have their own "jurisdictions" primarily because they have differing faiths, and yet have a sort of union. Well this is quite ironic then, because it is the new-calendarists who, despite having so many differing faiths, collectively have a different faith than the Orthodox.

So you look at "traditionalists" as having "broken off" from a strictly administrative point of view - and you are right. And perhaps this is why so many people fail to see, because they only see with their earthly eyes.

The Church however is not bound by administration. The church after all does not serve the administration, but rather, administration serves the church. And that is because it is entirely a matter of truth. The Orthodox are not bound together by tyrannical forces like the popes church where truth becomes secondary to earthly order. Orthodox unity is unity in the faith and administrative union is just a natural result. In fact according to the Orthodox, unity without a common faith (the truth) is more than a useless enterprise, it is the slavery of everything Christ set free.

I read someone say that "orthodox" people today are in love with the idea of the popes church even if they don't love the idea of a pope. They want that kind of power and recognition from the world, they want the world to bow down before it. And they don't realize how much their dream resembles the dream of the Jews who wanted an earthly king. So therefore, they hate anyone who destroys this earthly dream with schism.

I didn't accept this idea at first. But as it is, after literally years of having this in the back of my mind, I have come to see this is probably the single-most underlying goal of them all. I think it is even the reason for much of the ecumenism today. a parish who exchanges visits of congregation to a Baptist church does'nt really expect to convert anyone, and I doubt they really care. They just want to "show off", they want recogntion from the world. The truth and the Will of God is something secondary and disposable.

But the Church will prevail no matter how few are left. And when you think how much destruction has been done in the empty hulk called new-calendarism in only 80 years, I doubt there will be much resemblance to Orthodoxy left in only another 50.

Nikodemus · Post by **Nikodemus** » Fri 30 September 2005 5:00 pm

Edward

You should know that I belonged mainly to MP ever since my conversion to Orthodoxy and went to their parish in Stockhokm before that. My wife was baptised in this Church in Lithuania and most of my friends are in MP church. So, I must tell you that this decion for me, to with Gods help, go into communion with ROAC (if they accept me and my wife) has been anything than a way on roses. I have studied these issues a long time and talked to several priests in MP and in other jurisdictions about my concerns. I understand your argument because it used to be mine, but the history of the MP after sergej and the catacomb church convinced me that I was wrong. Did you know that the entire synod in MP were elected with the appsoval of the communist party? Patriarch Aleksej is also known under the name KGB agen Druzdov. When Sergej signed the declaration you should compare him with other patriarchs in history who refused to sign impius declarations and for that sake were persecuted by the empeor. Read the lives of St Chrysostomos and St Gregorius Palamas or St Mark of Ephesus. Then you could read the history of the first apostles themselves again and how they refused to submit to pagan emperors and were tortured to death with their flock ( a flock they could have saved the lives of if they submitted to the emperor).

The ecoe of the martyrs in Church history and in Russia speak one sentence: Hold fast the orthodox faith pure and you will get your revard in the Kingdom to come.

MP today is a schismatic body because Patriarch sergej created a schism that i still a schism till the bishops repent and condemn His heresy and shicm in a competent synod.