What would you do if ROCOR and the MP united tomorrow?

[Joe Zollars]

Way to go Peter! you just set up ROCOR to be attacked by the Cafe's resident ROAC member Juliana.

Also OCA is part of the MP. Given that, I would find it impossible to be in Communion with the MP. Talk about your different Ecclesiologies (not to mention religions)!

If the MP and ROCOR joined up tomorrow, and I didn't have reason to believe the MP and those that are part of her had returned to traditional Orthoodoxo belief and praxis, I would go to ROAC, the TOC, or maybe the GOC.

The hopefully soon to be Catechumen,

Joe Zollars

[Julianna]

However, my point was that if one would leave ROCOR for joining the MP, why go to a group with a different ecclesiology than what they believe now...i.e. why go to one the extreme groups?

:mrgreen: So you are agreeing with my that ROCOR has the same ecclesiology as the Sergianist MP? ROCOR used to say that it could not declare that those outside of its communion including the MP had Grace. Now they say the they cannot declare the those outside of their communion are without Grace. the TOC affirms that all of World Orthodoxy has Grace and communes them all

Communion with one means shared ecclesiology

ROCOR's communion and concelebration with the ecumenical TOC, JP and Serbian Orthodox Church is why the Free Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR inside of Russia) and a number of ROCOR parishes abroad left ROCOR and became the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church. We have the same ecclesiology that ROCOR had up to the early 1990's

[Julianna]

Way to go Peter! you just set up ROCOR to be attacked by the Cafe's resident ROAC member Juliana.

Good call

[Joe Zollars]

Some of us who are in (or in my case hope to soon be in) ROCA/ROCOR have the same ecclesiology that ROAC has. If there was a ROAC church nearby, and if it was closer than St. James in Owasso, I have to admit that I'd be tempted.

Anyway if ROCOR jumps in bed with the MP, without it returning to Orthodoxy, than you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be ROAC, or one of the other juris I mentioned.

[bogoliubtsy]

I think you both just failed your reading comprehension test. I spoke of ecclesiology IN REGARDS TO THE GRACE OF OTHER ORTHODOX JURISDICTIONS!

My point was...and still is...Why, at the reunion of the MP and ROCOR, would someone leave ROCOR, which does not deny the grace of the MP's sacraments and never officially has, and join a group with a DIFFERENT STANCE ON THE GRACE OF ORTHODOX JURISDICTIONS THAN THE ONE THEY CURRENTLY HOLD AS A MEMBER OF ROCOR.

Can I make it simpler?
If you are ROCOR you now believe that the sacraments of other Orthodox jurisdictions have grace.
Why then, would a reunion with the MP make you stop believing what you presently believe.
The way you stop believing in the grace of anyone's sacraments but your own, is to join one of the "extremist" groups mentioned in the poll.

Is there another way to phrase this??

Let me also point out. No, ROCOR does not have the same ecclesiology as the "Sergianist MP" that's why the two aren't united and all of the schisms caused by rumors of reunification are ridiculous and based on personal motivation. However, I was speaking of the grace of the sacraments. As is confirmed by a recent letter by Metr.Laurus, ROCOR does NOT deny the grace of the MP's sacraments.

Now, on a related note. What is JoeZollars talking about?

"Also OCA is part of the MP. Given that, I would find it impossible to be in Communion with the MP. Talk about your different Ecclesiologies (not to mention religions)!

If the MP and ROCOR joined up tomorrow, and I didn't have reason to believe the MP and those that are part of her had returned to traditional Orthoodoxo belief and praxis, I would go to ROAC, the TOC, or maybe the GOC.

The hopefully soon to be Catechumen"

The OCA and ROCOR are "different religions"?? The OCA and ROCOR were united on and off until the 1940's. Please, inform us as to how the OCA and ROCOR are different religions. It might be wise at this point to focus on the last line of your message. You're not Orthodox and are already slinging mud at the very body of Christ you "desire" to join.

[Joe Zollars]

IF Rocor joined up with the MP it would become part of the MP. Therefore it would be forced to accept the MP's ecclesiology with regards to sergianism, ecumenism (yes the MP IS ecumenist), etc. Not just the grace of their sacraments. Perhaps the reunion would make one rethink the issue of the grace within other juris.

One is Orthodox, the other is not. Do the math. I stand (firmly) by what I said.

Joe Zollars

[bogoliubtsy]

My original question dealt with why one would leave their current stance on grace behind by joining an extremist group. Why not just join another group not in communion with the MP and keep your same stance on grace in other jurisdictions.

I find it really strange that you're not yet a catechumen and already making such bold, sweeping statements. Tell my God-Parents that their murdered MP priest was not Orthodox or never even a priest. Tell the persecuted "above ground" Christians of Russia who probably couldn't even find the Catacomb Church if they were looking for it that the job they lost, the brutality THEY faced was all for the sake of a lie.

"One is Orthodox, the other is not. Do the math."

Yes my friend, and you too are not Orthodox.