A new "walling off" has begun?

[Ekaterina]

OOD wrote:

The Holy Canons were never intended to be "laws"

So replace the word "rules" with Canons..... the idea does not change.

Katya

[joasia]

There is certainly a great misunderstanding today when it comes to the canons. The Holy Canons were never intended to be "laws" like the Roman Catholics, they are pastoral in nature and exist for the healing of souls. Therefore, they are "ideals' and not laws.

I read something about this, but I don't remember where.

The Canons are a guideline as, I dare to say, the Bible is too. They are both sacred and both inspired by the Holy Spirit through the holy fathers and Apostles(respectively). They are the letter of the law. In other words, they are the do's and the don'ts. We follow them because they are the guideline for our everyday lives. The saints followed them because they had an overwhelming love, in their hearts, for God and it was the consequence of that love. That's what makes these Canons and the Bible a different meaning for us and for the saints.

We FOLLOW the LAW with obedience...the saints LIVED it with faith. They lived with the presence of the Holy Spirit...in a state of dispassion. God granted them the aquisition of the Holy Spirit (the state of Theosis). We don't have that so we nitpick about do's and don'ts, WITHOUT the true love of God in our hearts.

Orthodoxy is a label. It identifies a path of the true teachings. But, we cannot be true followers of Christ if we do not have that feeling of love for all mankind that feels like our hearts are going to burst in our chest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting Orthodoxy down. I am Orthodox above everything, but I have come to realize that our secular understanding of Orthodoxy is faulty...hence, all these arguements of jurisdictions and do's and don'ts is the misunderstanding of God's teachings.

God is above labels. He is Love. He is a compassionate God.

All we need to do is read the lives of the saints and see how they loved with all their hearts.

In conclusion, I'm saying that the canons and laws are necessary, but that the spiritual benefit, for our salvation, is lost if we follow them ONLY because they are Canons and laws and not because our hearts live by them. These Canons and laws were already God's will, which the saints followed because of the natural recourse of their aquired state of theosis. We follow them because we are told to.

An analogy comes to mind...two children are taught to play the piano. One feels the music in his heart and his fingers glide over the keys. He feels the joy of the notes. The other is taught the skill and plays it correctly, but never puts his heart into it.

They are both following the same instructions, but which one is truely living for the music and which one is just going by the rules?

Anyways, this is my view on it. Forgive me if I have offended anyone.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Anyone can claim "an Orthodox confession of faith" and even use it to justify themselves, but in the end there is no justification.

And Mira has it right no Orthodox Jurisdiction can truly claim to be "without blemish". We have ALL departed from the true path.

Whose idea is this? Who invented this way of thinking? This is certainly not what any Holy Father, council, or saint taught, in fact they taught the opposite quite clearly.

This is a nice statement in order to blunt all of these important issues into nothing - so that we can think we are not responsible for where we are and which bishops we follow. In fact, this statement is so general that it can be applied to the Roman Catholics and Protestants (who already make this claim):

"nobody can claim an Orthodox confession of faith".

But if this statement is true, then Christ's Church has ceased to exist and we can not only call people dressed like the Orthodox, "Orthodox", but we can call even the Latins and Protestants "Orthodox". Dare I say, a statement such as this is blasphemy.

While most "bishops" might be good actors, dressing like the Orthodox, they in fact do not have an Orthodox confession of faith or are in communion with such people. But there are indeed bishops who have an Orthodox confession of faith, just as Christ promised the gates of Hades (death) would not prevail against His Church (His truth).

With regard to the canons I would comment again that while many are very strict, others are not and much is left up to the discretion of the priests and bishops. This is why we have "economy" and "exactness" when they are applied - because the canons are pastoral in nature. They seek the protection and healing of the sheep, which isn't always done the same way for each sickness.

[TomS]

I am Orthodox above everything, but I have come to realize that our secular understanding of Orthodoxy is faulty...hence, all these arguements of jurisdictions and do's and don'ts is the misunderstanding of God's teachings.

God is above labels. He is Love. He is a compassionate God.

Sound Protestant to me! That's a slippery slope you are standing on, Missy!

[Ekaterina]

OOD:

You misunderstand me.... I am not against Christ's church, I believe in it with all my heart. I am a simple person trying to make my way through a flood of confusion and .......I don't even know what to call it.

I look for the truth and I believe and hope that Christ will guide me though all this. I know that nothing will prevail against HIS church, but here we are dealing with men who all seem to claim they know better. It is THEM that I question, not Christ or His church.

If you choose to consider my comments as blasphemous, there is nothing I can do or know how to do to change your mind. I feel that there is a distinct difference between faith (God's domain) and religion (man's domain). It is in that murky middle that we run into problems.

I'm not saying that there are no good Orthodox Bishops and Priests. I think however they are few and far between. I stay with Rocor because for now they have some good priests, in whom I have faith, they inturn have faith in our bishops. I hold them in high enough regard to accept their guidance. Is that wrong? I DON'T KNOW, but I have or know no other way.

This does not keep me from saying that :

no Orthodox Jurisdiction can truly claim to be "without blemish". We have ALL departed from the true path.

and it does not prevent me from questioning the very human nature of the men in charge. Questioning whether their actions are from genuine faith or from human greed and power. The question then is where is there less of a blemish? Who holds closest to the truth? Not easy questions, no easy answers.

If I follow your logic, then I am without a church, for I don't believe in your jurisdiction or any of the others represented here. I know because I have tried, and come up empty handed and empty hearted.

Katya

[SouthernOrthodox]

I agree totally with you katya. One could go mad over with the different traditions, beliefs etc. of the Russian Church. As a side note, these good people here are ROCOR want to bees.

[尼古拉前执事]

I agree totally with you katya. One could go mad over with the different traditions, beliefs etc. of the Russian Church. As a side note, these good people here are ROCOR want to bees.

Which individuals are ROCOR wannabes, and why do you say so?