Jewish hatred of christianity

[Nikodemus]

Melk wrote:
"
As far as most Orthodox Jews being against the state of Israel, you need to check your facts. There only remain two sects of Hasidic Jews who still stand against the state of Israel. That being said most do stand against secular zionism, and none see Israel as it is today as a fulfillment of any kind of prophecy, it is simply the first secular state where Jews have been safe and free. Where they don't have to be put down by another religion whether Islam or Christianity. If you can name me just one Christian Holy site anywhere in Israel that has been turned into a synagogue then I might listen. [/u]"

Here are other orthodox jewish groups that are opposed to zionism:

A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist groups:

Bene Yoel
Breslov
Brisk
Hazon Ish
Kaschau
Krasna
Kretcheniff
Malochim
Munkacs
Neturei Karta
Nitra
Pupa
Satmar
Skullene
Slonim (Weinberg)
Toldoth Aharon
Toldoth Avrohom Yitzchok
Tosh
Wiznitz Hassidic sect based in Monsey, NY

A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist organizations:

Edah HaCharedith lekol Makhelot Ha'Ashkenazim
Rabbinical High Court for all Ashkenazic communities, Jerusalem
Edah HaCharedith HaSefaradit, Sefaradic Rabbinical High Court, Jerusalem
Hisachduth HaRabbonim DeArtzos HaBris VeKanada - Central Rabbinical Congress of the United States and Canada (CRC)
Yeshivath Ahavath Shalom
Go

A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox anti-Zionist rabbis of past generations:

His Holiness Sidna Baba Sali - ADMoR HaHaham Hakadosh Rabi Yisrael Abu Hasera
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman
the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb Cahyim Soloveitchik
the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb VelvelSoloveitchik
the Brisker Rav, Hagaon Reb Moshe Yehudah Leib Diskin
the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, HaGaon Reb Yoseph Chayim Sonnenfeld

would be out of the question to publish all the utterances of Gedolei Yisroel [Torah authorities] during the last century, the period of the emergence of Zionism on the Jewish horizon, because all the Gedolei Yisroel sternly opposed the movement aimed at undermining the Jewish religion and the Jewish essence

[The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means

Rabbi S. R. Hirsch
Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.

Rabbi S.D. Schneerson
[Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.

Rabbi C. Soloveichik
The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.

Rabbi V. Soloveichik

The root of Zionism is heresy and its branches can hardly be otherwise.

[Nikodemus]

There is an explanation for the facts that you dont find the name of Jesus in the Talmud. Here is the explanation I found:

JESUS CHRIST IN THE TALMUD
Many passages in the Talmudic books treat of the birth, life, death, and teachings of Jesus Christ. He is not always referred to by the same name, however, but is diversely called "That Man," "A Certain One," "The Carpenter's Son," "The One Who Was Hanged," etc.

Article I. - Concerning the Names of Jesus Christ

1. The real name of Christ in Hebrew is Jeschua Hanotsri - Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth in which he was brought up. Thus in the Talmud Christians also are called Notsrim - Nazarenes.
   Since the word Jeschua means "Savior," the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu, which is maliciously taken as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach Schemo Vezikro - "May his name and memory be blotted out."

2. In the Talmud Christ is called Otho Isch - "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath"

3. Elsewhere he is simply called Peloni - "A Certain One." In Chagigah, 4b, we read:
   "Mary...the mother of a certain one, of whom it is related in Schabbath..." (104b)
   That this Mary is none other than the mother of Jesus will be shown later.

4. Out of contempt, Jesus is also called Naggar bar naggar - "the carpenter son of a carpenter", also Ben charsch etaim - "the son of a wood worker."

5. He is also called Talui - "The one who was hanged." Rabbi Samuel, the son of Mair, in the Hilch. Akum of Maimonides, refers to the fact that it was forbidden to take part in the Christian feats of Christmas and Easter because they were celebrated on account of him who was hanged. And Rabbi Aben Ezra, in a commentary on Genes. also calls him Talui, whose image the Emperor Constantine reproduced on his banner. "...in the days of Constantine, who made a change of religion and placed the figure of the one who was hanged on his banner."

ANd thats why you perhaps missed the name of Jesus when you were reading about him

[melk]

"
A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist groups:

Breslov
Brisk
Hazon Ish

These three I know for sure are not anti-zionist.

:
A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist organizations:

:
Edah HaCharedith lekol Makhelot Ha'Ashkenazim
Rabbinical High Court for all Ashkenazic communities, Jerusalem

This one is not, I know the Rabbi.

: Edah HaCharedith HaSefaradit, Sefaradic Rabbinical High Court, Jerusalem

This one also is not I know this Rabbi.

:
Hisachduth HaRabbonim DeArtzos HaBris VeKanada - Central Rabbinical Congress of the United States and Canada (CRC)

This is a Satmar organization and I already said that they are not.

:
Yeshivath Ahavath Shalom

I studied here, so I know that they are not.

:
A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox anti-Zionist rabbis of past generations:

: His Holiness Sidna Baba Sali - ADMoR HaHaham Hakadosh Rabi Yisrael Abu Hasera

He was my beloved cousin and also my Sandek(equivelant to God father) and he was not.

:
the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb Cahyim Soloveitchik

(Dead and doesn't count)

:
the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb VelvelSoloveitchik

(the above's son, deand adn doesn't count)

:
the Brisker Rav, Hagaon Reb Moshe Yehudah Leib Diskin

(Dead and doesn't count)

:
the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, HaGaon Reb Yoseph Chayim Sonnenfeld

(dead and doesn't count)
All of the last four above died before there even was a state of Israel.

:
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch
Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.

Died in 1860 long before there was an Israel as we know it today.

:
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson
[Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.

Died in 1890, both of his predecessors supported Israel(look up Chabad.org)

:
Rabbi C. Soloveichik
The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.

Rabbi V. Soloveichik

Both died before there was an Israel as we know it today. Most of these people died when Herzle still wanted to establish a state of Israel in Uganda.

[melk]

There is an explanation for the facts that you dont find the name of Jesus in the Talmud. Here is the explanation I found:

JESUS CHRIST IN THE TALMUD
Many passages in the Talmudic books treat of the birth, life, death, and teachings of Jesus Christ. He is not always referred to by the same name, however, but is diversely called "That Man," "A Certain One," "The Carpenter's Son," "The One Who Was Hanged," etc.

Article I. - Concerning the Names of Jesus Christ

1. The real name of Christ in Hebrew is Jeschua Hanotsri - Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth in which he was brought up. Thus in the Talmud Christians also are called Notsrim - Nazarenes.
   Since the word Jeschua means "Savior," the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu, which is maliciously taken as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach Schemo Vezikro - "May his name and memory be blotted out."

2. In the Talmud Christ is called Otho Isch - "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath"

3. Elsewhere he is simply called Peloni - "A Certain One." In Chagigah, 4b, we read:
   "Mary...the mother of a certain one, of whom it is related in Schabbath..." (104b)
   That this Mary is none other than the mother of Jesus will be shown later.

4. Out of contempt, Jesus is also called Naggar bar naggar - "the carpenter son of a carpenter", also Ben charsch etaim - "the son of a wood worker."

5. He is also called Talui - "The one who was hanged." Rabbi Samuel, the son of Mair, in the Hilch. Akum of Maimonides, refers to the fact that it was forbidden to take part in the Christian feats of Christmas and Easter because they were celebrated on account of him who was hanged. And Rabbi Aben Ezra, in a commentary on Genes. also calls him Talui, whose image the Emperor Constantine reproduced on his banner. "...in the days of Constantine, who made a change of religion and placed the figure of the one who was hanged on his banner."

ANd thats why you perhaps missed the name of Jesus when you were reading about him

You can only read the Talmud that way if you desire to seriously ignore all the historical evidence stating that in those passages that they are talking about someone else. Please view the link I posted before that refutes all of this.

As far as the Rambam(Maimodanes), whose work I read three times a year for the 20yrs, the only place that I know of where he speaks of Christianity is when he states, " It has done an unmeasurable service to the world, for it has introduced to the nations the idea and belief of Messiah, that on his revelation they too will accept him." If you consider that to be derogatory... then sorry.

Look Nikodem, if you want to be a Jew-hater that is your decision. If you want to promulgate Jew-hatred and Jew-hating literature, that too is your decision. Personally I thank God that I didn't meet you when I was considering Christ. I also thank God that this has not been the position of the Holy and Catholic Church.

[MBZ]

Hi all!

Melk, why do you even bother?

Nikodem, ya know, I think that you know too much and this isn't good. I will definitely have to bring this up at the next Higher Committee meeting...ooops...darn...I shouldn't have mentioned the Higher Committee...the Elders will be angry...rats!...I shouldn't have mentioned the Elders either...now I'm really in for it...um...ponderponderponder...pay no attention to what I just said, none whatsoever! All is well!

Melk, the late Prof. Richard Hofstadter wrote a brilliant article (I think) back in 1964, entitled "The Paranoid Style in American Politics." While the examples he gives (among them anti-Catholicism & the "Jesuit threat") are all from American political history, his conclusions (as presented & summarized in the last section of the essay) are, I think, aplicable everywhere. Prof. Hofstadter writes:

A final characteristic of the paranoid style is related to the quality of its pedantry. One of the impressive things about paranoid literature is the contrast between its fantasied conclusions and the almost touching concern with factuality it invariably shows. It produces heroic strivings for evidence to prove that the unbelievable is the only thing that can be believed. Of course, there are highbrow, lowbrow, and middlebrow paranoids, as there are likely to be in any political tendency. But respectable paranoid literature not only starts from certain moral commitments that can indeed be justified but also carefully and all but obsessively accumulates :evidence.” The difference between this “evidence” and that commonly employed by others is that it seems less a means of entering into normal political controversy than a means of warding off the profane intrusion of the secular political world. The paranoid seems to have little expectation of actually convincing a hostile world, but he can accumulate evidence in order to protect his cherished convictions from it.

(...).

The higher paranoid scholarship is nothing if not coherent—in fact the paranoid mind is far more coherent than the real world. It is nothing if not scholarly in technique.

(...).

The paranoid style is not confined to our own country and time; it is an international phenomenon. Studying the millennial sects of Europe from the eleventh to the sixteenth century, Norman Cohn believed he found a persistent psychic complex that corresponds broadly with what I have been considering—a style made up of certain preoccupations and fantasies: “the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque.”

This glimpse across a long span of time emboldens me to make the conjecture—it is no more than that—that a mentality disposed to see the world in this way may be a persistent psychic phenomenon, more or less constantly affecting a modest minority of the population. But certain religious traditions, certain social structures and national inheritances, certain historical catastrophes or frustrations may be conducive to the release of such psychic energies, and to situations in which they can more readily be built into mass movements or political parties. In American experience ethnic and religious conflict have plainly been a major focus for militant and suspicious minds of this sort, but class conflicts also can mobilize such energies. Perhaps the central situation conducive to the diffusion of the paranoid tendency is a confrontation of opposed interests which are (or are felt to be) totally irreconcilable, and thus by nature not susceptible to the normal political processes of bargain and compromise. The situation becomes worse when the representatives of a particular social interest—perhaps because of the very unrealistic and unrealizable nature of its demands—are shut out of the political process. Having no access to political bargaining or the making of decisions, they find their original conception that the world of power is sinister and malicious fully confirmed. They see only the consequences of power—and this through distorting lenses—and have no chance to observe its actual machinery. A distinguished historian has said that one of the most valuable things about history is that it teaches us how things do not happen. It is precisely this kind of awareness that the paranoid fails to develop. He has a special resistance of his own, of course, to developing such awareness, but circumstances often deprive him of exposure to events that might enlighten him—and in any case he resists enlightenment.

We are all sufferers from history, but the paranoid is a double sufferer, since he is afflicted not only by the real world, with the rest of us, but by his fantasies as well.

Link to the whole essay: http://tinyurl.com/2alvz.

You're the Baba Sali's cousin? Cool!

Be well!

MBZ

[Nikodemus]

Melk

You will be surprised then, because I found these lists of anti-zionist orthodox jewish organisation on the page I recommended:

www. Jewsnotzionists.org

According to this organization, the idea of a Israel must come through spiritual means, and by political or "wordly means"

It is not my list, it is theirs.

But if you agree that these thre orthodox groups are not zionists, then you must agree to that the other gorups this organisation mention are not.

The idea of a national homeland for jews appeared in the 19 century, so I guess that these rabbis were opposed to the idea of the secular ideals of Theodore Herzl. I read Theodoere Herzls book: The jewish state". If you have read it you know that he argues for other countries than Palestine.

According to the web-page Jewwsnot Zionists.org, many rabbis in the 19 century were against the idea of Theodore Herzl about a zionist state. You should perhaps write to them for correction before you blame me of anything.

MBZ

Before an anti-semite was a person who didnt like jews, today it is a person that the jews dont like.

I dont hate jews, kazars or any other group. But since criticism of some things in the Talmud that I read from an ex-rabbi of judaism, or an ex-concentration camp inmate, or to focus on the wrongdoings of the state of Israel for you is synonymous with anti-emitism, then I am an anti-semite.

[Nikodemus]

Melk and MBZ

I must tell you that I am not anti-semite. After WWII and the opening of concentration camps many jewish children were without parents and my family took care of some children after the war. I am totally against any kind of hatred toward any group. Since I try to be christian, I try to follow jewish profets and follow Jeshua of Nazareth, who I believe is the Messiah. WHo can I hate jews, when I follow Him, who was born of a jewish mother who I revere as the mother of God, Theotokos. I feel nothing but gratitude to the jewish people who were chosen among all people to deliver a Messiah for all mankind - profet Jesaia.