What Do You Think of This?

Stepanov · Post by **Stepanov** » Thu 28 April 2005 12:49 am

The following is an excerpt from Baptism and Sacramental Economy: An Agreed Statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, which can be found at this SCOBA link.

C. The Results of our Investigation: "We Confess One Baptism"
The Orthodox and Catholic members of our Consultation acknowledge, in both of our traditions, a common teaching and a common faith in one baptism, despite some variations in practice which, we believe, do not affect the substance of the mystery. We are therefore moved to declare that we also recognize each other's baptism as one and the same. This recognition has obvious ecclesiological consequences. The Church is itself both the milieu and the effect of baptism, and is not of our making. This recognition requires each side of our dialogue to acknowledge an ecclesial reality in the other, however much we may regard their way of living the Church's reality as flawed or incomplete. In our common reality of baptism, we discover the foundation of our dialogue, as well as the force and urgency of the Lord Jesus' prayer "that all may be one." Here, finally, is the certain basis for the modern use of the phrase, "sister churches."

That statement certainly reflects Vatican II Latin ecclesiology, but how can it possibly be considered Orthodox?

I realize the statement comes from the "North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation," and not from the SCOBA bishops themselves, but it does appear on their web site.

Have they endorsed it?

I realize this thing dates from 1999, so it may have already been discussed here at some point, but I just found out about it.

A St. Tikhon's Seminary (OCA) student posted it on another web site because he thought it was a good thing. He also recently posted that concelebration agreement between the Antiochians and the Syrian Monophysites as an example of a good thing.

???

Stepanov · Post by **Stepanov** » Mon 2 May 2005 7:45 pm

Bump.

I hope someone will discuss this. It is incredible to me.

This thing is just a continuation of what was begun in the infamous Balamand Agreement.

Where is the outcry from Orthodox Christians?

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Mon 2 May 2005 9:39 pm

Stepanov,

I saw this some time ago, and it is quite a shocker. I am convinced this is a method of deluding the new calendar flocks: Once they are convinced that Lutherans have baptism and the latins have a baptism, then therefore they have the Grace of the Church and can make people members of the Church. And if they have this, then they are part of the Church, however "crippled", and the thought immediatley arises that they must also have communion and other Mysteries. Therefore, wouldn't it be a sin to keep the "church' divided?

I don't think people realize just how important and dangerous this issue of Baptism is; it is just insidious.

Stepanov · Post by **Stepanov** » Tue 3 May 2005 12:18 am

I agree completely. The things said in that baptism document and in the infamous Balamand Agreement are right out of Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The next argument will be about accepting the Pope as a focal point of "unity in diversity" or something like that.

Recognizing cacodox baptisms as valid in themselves entails admitting that the sects performing them are churches and part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That reduces the Orthodox Church to just another church among the many.

That is heresy, plain and simple.

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Wed 4 May 2005 12:44 am

CHRIST IS RISEN!

These "Orthodox-catholic" jurisdictions are heretics. Why the panick? They will go on and proclaim that the pope is a saint. What can we Orthodox Christians do about that? Steph, look back 2000 years. There were so many heresies to combat. This is no different.

JOANNA

Stepanov · Post by **Stepanov** » Wed 4 May 2005 12:53 am

joasia wrote:
CHRIST IS RISEN!

These "Orthodox-catholic" jurisdictions are heretics. Why the panick? They will go on and proclaim that the pope is a saint. What can we Orthodox Christians do about that? Steph, look back 2000 years. There were so many heresies to combat. This is no different.

JOANNA

I hope I didn't give the impression of panic. That was certainly not my intent.

It's just amazing to me what so many so-called Orthodox hierarchs and theologians are saying. Coupled with all the terrible things going on in the world today, I would say that makes for evidence that we have entered the time of the end. Perhaps the advent of the Antichrist himself is right around the corner.

It troubles me, too, that at a time like this unsuspecting people are converting to what they think are legitimate Orthodox churches and are being sold a bill of goods.