THE SUNDAY OF THE TRIUMPH OF ORTHODOXY

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

day sabbath holy by resting and going to church on saturday.

What law says that we must do this?

[CHRISTIAN 1]

The fourth commandment. By the way, what law says that you should worship on sunday in place of saturday. Jesus, as the bible says, is supposed to be our example and worships on saturday.

[尼古拉前执事]

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Of course Christ also healed on the Sabbath which the Pharisees, being super-legalistic about the Sabbath day, used to try and condemn him. He worked miracles, He healed the infirm, He ordered others to take up their bed and walk with it, all things the prominent Jews assailed him for.

And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

But like OOD said, most everyone here is in Church Saturday AND Sunday and neither day is ever a strict fasting day save for Great and Holy Saturday.

From the beginning of the Church Sunday was the Lord's Day, the day of the Resurrection, the day of the Divine Liturgy. Likewise the Church still follows rules of modesty, of having bishops, presbyters and deacons, of fasting and all these things that are Apostolic teachings that derived from God.

Remember also that the Apostles had been given, as the first bishops of the Church, the right to bind and loose and whatsoever they bound or loosed on earth was also bound or loosed in heaven.

[Joseph]

Such discussions are futile. It is like one person trying to tell another how to repair the engine in a car but the other person doesn't beleive there is such a thing as an engine.

Christian holds a completely different faith, is led by a different spirit and worships a different God than the Orthodox. You can argue the issue of the Sabbath/Sunday until you are blue in the face but it will lead nowhere since the two sides have completely different presuppositions and confess different faiths.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

This is the fruit of Sola Scriptura. I suppose I could start a new religion based on the notion that Mary was the birth-giver only of Christ's flesh, and not the birthgiver of God; after all, what part of Holy Scripture would deny me my new religion? (actually it would not be a new idea at all) And if the Moonies could get followers, I suppose if I was a good salesman I would find followers too. I mean it just makes sense doesn't it? How could the Virgin mary give birth to God? Rationalists like theories that fit into neat little boxes, this is why they don't believe in the priesthood, or Holy Communion, or Holy Confession, or the other Mysteries, because these ideas are abstract. But nothing about Christ was rational at all!

That's all for me. Imagine that, Christ's church rediscovered and saved after 2000 years by some woman in the late 1800's.

yes, joseph b, truly. I remember it being likened to trying to explain what sunshine is to a blind person. Lets all pray for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Isn't the Old Testament the letter of the law, as the jews still keep it, and the New Testament, the spirit of the law? The old Sabbath was the old way and the New Sabbath(spiritual) is the fulfillment of the prophesies.

God led mankind through the transition. And the fact that God choose to be buried during the jewish sabbath, where He went to meet the Old Testament faithful and led them out of hades to the new eternal life of His Resurrection, indicates His intentions. Not to mention, that the Holy Fathers have written and established the tradition as Sunday being the spiritual Sabbath, as was inspired by the Holy Spirit, of course. It took some time to establish the traditions we are following now.

Honoring sunday above Gods sabbath, would be breaking Gods law.

The Old Testament Sabbath was the letter of the law. Christ was the turning point of what should be followed. He established the spirit of the law...His Ressurection, which they did not have in the Old Testament. This was the fulfillment of their prophesies.

It's good to know the quotes of the Old Testament, but Christ gave us the New Testament which succeeds the old ways.

In the Old Testament, they say an eye for an eye, but Christ taught that if we are offended or attacked that we should respond with love. His actions were the example of how He wanted us to treat each other, especially if He was so badly mistreated and still did not retaliate. He taught, turn the other cheek.

Jesus did not come to do away with the law, but to uphold it. If you change the saturday sabbath of the 4th commandment to sunday

Christ came to make a new law and His Resurrection was the means. That is why the curtain tore in the Temple when He died on the Cross. The old law died with Him. God always had this transition planned.

I have searched the scriptures far and wide, as I wan't to please God. I have yet to find a scripture describing a major change to Gods perfect law, which would substitute sunday for saturday.

You're looking for an explanation in the letters. Look for it in the spirit. What I mean is, you need to take different passages, here and there and put them together to get an understanding of the spiritual message. That's why it's so important to read the Holy Fathers who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and who knew what God was teaching.

It is interesting to see how other people interpret the bible.

I, personally, don't interpret the Bible. I read the Holy Fathers.

To give honor to sunday would seem to be following the traditions of men, and not the commandments of God.

And should we not honor Sunday as it is the fulfillment of the prophesies of our Messiah who is our Salvation? Christ met with His Disciples on that day of His Resurrection. If saturday would still be above sunday, then He would have been Ressurected on saturday and met His disciples on that day. Read the meaning, not the words.

The Bible Scriptures end with St. John the Theologian, Revelations. What happened afterwards? Life went on. The people that lived in those times continued to worship the Resurrected Christ. Bishops continued to be ordained with every generation. Churches were established. Ecuemical Councils were held. They took it very seriously and preserved the teachings of Christ. They are a much better authority to teach us, then all these sects we have now.

When speaking of the ten commandment sabbath Matt 5:18-19 says:
For verily I say unto you, till HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY(forever), one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
whosoever therefore shall break ONE of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matt: 5;20
For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here, He is referring to the old ways that they continued to follow, in their state of blindness and refuse to follow Christ and the New Covenent.

From 5:21 to the end of that chapter, Christ instructed His disciples of the difference between the old ways and His new spiritual laws(as I mentioned earlier).

So read the meaning and not the letters. You cannot take one passage and twist it to your explanation of support for your arguement.

Let go of your pride. Do you really want to worship Christ in the truth?? Then seek the truth. Open your ears and eyes.

Look at it this way...you've obviously been influenced to accept some other sects point of view. Now, try an experiment...try to accept the Orthodox point of view. Don't reject...just listen and read (the Holy Fathers, of course).

Why are so many people ready to argue against the Orthodox viewpoint, which is the one that has upheld the traditions of the Apostles for the passed 2000 years and accept some lame explanation of whatever else?

If God had ever planned to change something so important as the fourth commandment, he would have told us and made it clear.

He did make it clear...through Jesus Christ. Remember the disciples going through the fields and eating the wheat. The Pharisees were shocked because it was against the letter of the law. Or the example Christ gave the Pharisees about saving one of their livestock on the sabbath. He was trying to show them that God's commandments have surpassed the letter and that we should understand Him in the spirit.

He doesn't have to make changes to His law.

He is God. He can make any changes that He wants. We just have to follow them. God established certain laws due to Adam and Eve's transgressions. Sort of like disciplining children. But, His plan wasn't established in fullness until Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection. Then everything changed. God always had this plan.

He would have no doubt told the disciples before His death that sunday worship was to be instituted.

He did. By Christ's Resurrection. It certainly changed many jews. Who do you think taught Christ's plans to the succeeding bishops and they to the next ones? That is what has established the Holy Traditions.

And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

And the Apostles knew Him and they instructed their successors with the teachings that they knew about Christ and God's plans and so on and so forth. Don't you think that part of keeping His Commandments, is accepting the changes He made? The focal point of the change was with Christ's Resurrection. God always had that planned. Trusting in this New Covenent is keeping His commandments. Christ's teachings, passed down by the Apostles is still God's commandments. To know God, is to recognize His commandments.

God's commandments of the Old Testament were a form of structure for the fallen nature due to Adam and Eve. It was the consequence of their refusal to repent for their disobedience. Don't you think that God knew what they were going to do? So God had it all planned out. He had already planned to make mankind the children of God, instead of just His perfect creation. I read that from St. John Chrysostom. Christ was the link to that. Remember what it says in Genesis: 2:26 - "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were always there, with the Father. You see...there is more to the Commandments, then the Letter. There is a whole purpose, structure, plan. First, it had to be the letter and then it was transformed to a conscienciousness of the spirit.

Jesus taught in the synagogue on saturday sabbath as was His custom.

This was before His death. You have to remember that He came to the jews first. But, after His Resurrection, He instructed the Apostles to preach to all the nations(gentiles). If you misunderstand the context, you will lose the true meaning of His teachings.

In your study of the Bible, have you ever read the writings of the Holy Fathers like St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great? If you want to do a complete study, then don't be afraid to read their writings too.

Jesus, as the bible says, is supposed to be our example and worships on saturday.

Jesus Christ instructed the Apostles after His Resurrection. And they continued His teachings. Shouldn't that be taken into concideration too?

Such discussions are futile

Joseph....

If Christ thought that way about mankind, then He would never have accepted His Cross. How much more, should we be patient and remember Christ's example?

It's Bright Week. Everyday is Pascha. Let's have joy in our hearts and welcome those who seek the truth.

Christian 1,

The only thing I can say, at the end of my long-winded reply is...pray to God for constant guidance. He will lead you, if you really want to know the whole truth. Don't settle for fractions.

Joanna

[CHRISTIAN 1]

I appreciate all the responses! It is especially nice to hear from those of you who show fruits of the spirit and can have a debate without resorting to personal/religious attacks or insulting analogies. I realize that my religious beliefs, being based only on the written word of God, are going to be attacked.
I can appreciate the fact that you guys have a different point of view. God created us with free will, and you guys have a right to your opinions. As you can tell, I believe the bible is all that is necessary to know God. I have found Jesus Christ through His word and rely on the bible to test truths. Many biblical writings I have read just don't follow the bible truths, in fact many are contradictory. Any written word other than the bible, must agree with and coincide with the bible in order to have merit.
May God bless you all! The bible is an awesome book, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit can be interpreted by anyone. My prayer is that every practiced truth be tested against the bible. I hope to see all of you in heaven one day, where we will be taught directly by the Master Himself.