Fundamentalism

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OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Do you only see fundamentalism as a problem if pushed to the extreme?

I think that this is where Justin is struggling, as he is in reality defining only the Orthodox fundamentalist who tries to find the perfect church but finds that he cannot be home in any local church because we are all sinners. He tries to find perfection in an imperfect world.

Maria,

There are several different definitions of fundamentalism, but in the sense Justin defines it, of course I would see it as a big problem. I would say a person such as Justin describes would not last long in the Orthodox Church. These are the "seeds" which fall to the ground and land on the rocks, and because they have no roots, blow away. In fact, I can remember a Protestant so-called "bible thumper", who was a relative of a close friend; unfortunately in a few years this person abandoned everything and was back to her old ways.

I think it important to mention that Justin seems to have applied some generalizations which might make for a good sound-bite, but is not applicable the way he uses it. I will not go through everything he wrote, but as one example he says, "As Christians, we are taught to second-guess our opinions, and to not rely on our own judgment as to what is correct and incorrect." This is true. It also has nothing to do with studying and following, not our own opinions, but the opinions of the Holy Fathers and the Church. Now is someone going to say that we should second guess the Church, or believe it is not possible for regular people to follow what the Church has always believed? Is someone going to say these new-age psuedo-bishops are understandable and we should follow them, but one cannot understand the Holy Fathers? Where could such absurd thinking as this come from?

But the issue we have before us however is not simply of fundamentalism as Justin describes it; It is as much about the people who think they see a "fundamentalist". Sometimes people judge others based on a very narrow exposure to another person and the subjects discussed might be limited. In addition, many times a person is themselves lukewarm in spirit.

Often these people who are lukewarm seek to dismiss another person because they are challenged; they might come to understand that the facts are not on their side, and then, probably subconsciously, find an escape by applying a label to that person in order to dismiss them - and the dismissing is mostly to ease their own conscience.

These lukewarm people are only motivated by a desire for their own comfort, whether that comfort is physical, intellectual, or both. Sometimes they are motivated toward other goals as some people have high ideas of what they think the Church should be. These people may be fervent for their own spirit, but they are still lukewarm to Christ. And Christ has some words for people who are lukewarm, which we discussed at the church in the course of our study of Revelations.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." [Rev. 15-21]

The people Christ was referring to were not cold, but they were not hot; they were not unbelievers, yet they were not earnest believers; they did not oppose Tradition, but neither did they defend it; they were not working mischief, neither were they doing any great good; they were not disreputable in moral character, but they were not distinguished for holiness; they were not irreligious, but they were not enthusiastic in piety nor noted for thier zeal: they were what the world calls "Moderates," they were of the broad, easy church, they were neither bigots nor pure, they were prudent and avoided fanaticism, respectable and averse to excitement. Good things were maintained among them, but they did not make too much of them; they had services, but there were few present, for they liked quiet evenings at home: when more attended the services and meetings, they were still very dull, for they did their praying very systematically and were afraid of being out of place. They were content to have all things done decently and in order, but vigor and zeal they considered to be vulgar. Such churches have schools, Bible-classes, Liturgy, and all sorts of activities; but they might as well be without them, for no energy is displayed and no good comes of them. They have deacons, priests, and bishops who are excellent pillars of the church, if the chief quality of pillars be to stand for anything, and exhibit no steadfastness. They have priests who they may think are angels, but Christ may see that they have their wings closely clipped, for they do not fly very far in carrying on the Faith of the Holy Fathers, and they certainly are not flames of fire: they may be shining lights of eloquence, but they certainly are not burning lights of grace. In such communities everything is done in a half-hearted, listless, dead-and-alive way, as if it did not matter much whether it was done or not. It makes one's flesh creep to see how sluggishly they move. Things are respectably done, the rich families are not offended, the skeptical are satisfied, and the good people are not quite alienated: things are made pleasant all around.

The right things are done, but as to doing them with all your might, and soul, and strength, a lukewarm person has no notion of what that means. They are not so cold as to abandon their work, or to give up being at Liturgy, or to reject the Faith; if they did so, then they could be convinced of their error and brought to repentance; but on the other hand they are neither hot for the truth, nor hot for following Christ, nor hot for holiness or zealous enough to make Satan angry, nor fervent enough to make a living sacrifice of themselves. They are "neither cold nor hot."

This is a horrible state. God grant we may not be numbered with them but be HOT, in our hearts especially, for Christ.

Ebor
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Post by Ebor »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Your father sounds like a nice man. Now who is Thomas Moore, and what is a Red Shift?

Red Shift similar to the Doppler Shift with sound: things approaching the sound gets higher in pitch/light shifts towards blue, things going away the sound gets lower in pitch/light shifts towards red.
http://www.arachnoid.com/sky/redshift.html

Thomas Moore was an Irish poet:
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/tmoore.htm

SIr Thomas More was beheaded for treason because he would not swear to the Act of Succession and the Oath of Supremacy http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/morebio.htm

The masked pedant strikes again. :)

Ebor

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Stepanov
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Re: Fundamentalism

Post by Stepanov »

Justin Kissel wrote:

I don't claim to have the exact definition of fundamentalism, but if I had to describe it, I would say that wherever fundamentalism is, Christian virtues such as humility, soberness, gentleness, patience, non-judgmentalism, love, and so forth are, to a greater or lesser degree, absent or distorted. In other words, the more fundamentalist one is, the less these virtues are able to spring from the soul of a person and manifest themselves in outward actions. Fundamentalism, then, is what happens when someone made in the image of God becomes spiritually ill in a rigid and self-righteous way.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't think that's what fundamentalism is at all. What you have defined above are all flaws that could characterize liberals and modernists, as well as fundamentalists, or anyone else, for that matter.

I have known Protestant fundamentalists who were humble, sober, gentle, patient, non-judgmental, loving, etc.

What made them fundamentalists was their rejection of the liberal and modernist currents in contemporary religion.

They embrace what they consider the fundamentals of Evangelical Protestantism, i.e., reliance on the Bible as the literal word of God, salvation by faith, etc.

Those are the things that make them fundamentalists, not their character flaws, which are not all of one kind anyway.

As Christians, we are taught to second-guess our opinions, and to not rely on our own judgment as to what is correct and incorrect. Not before we have cleansed the nous, anyway. If someone does correct another, it should be because they have been purified, and because they have the authority/role for doing so (e.g., a Priest correct a Parishioner, or a Father correcting a Son).

We are not taught to second guess the essentials of the faith. Such second guessing is called doubting.

How does one know he has "cleansed the nous"?

Wouldn't someone who believed he had been so purified be rather suspect?

The saints about whom I have read never thought they were clean enough.

We are all called at times to correct each other in love.

But the root of fundamentalism makes people think that anyone and everyone has the right to correct and contradict others, based simply on the premise that they have correct information and that others are wrong. The degree to which someone has been healed of their spiritual sickness is irrelevant. All that matters is that fundamentalists are correct, and have information that they think others should have (whether the people want the informration, or really need it, is irrelevant).

I don't know about "rights," but we may at times have the duty to correct others.

If we all waited until we were healed of our spiritual sickness, none of us would ever speak.

I think Orthodox Christianity is a form of Christian fundamentalism, but I wouldn't define fundamentalism the way the OP did.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

I think that spiritual discernment is a very fundamental factor in staying on the right path towards God. All the other fundamentalist things that others have posted is more about personal opinions; and personal opinions can be wrong. People make mistakes in their views about how they view a situation.

So all the fundamentalists of religious sects, outside of Orthodoxy, are basically lacking spiritual discernment. The protestants, baptists, anglicans, catholics etc.

The question is, what is the fundamental truth of God? The answer is...One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Eph: 4;5)

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Maria
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Post by Maria »

When I was a Roman Catholic, the priests and nuns used to say to the more Traditionalists among us, "Don't be holier than the Pope. You're becoming like a Protestant fundamentalist."

So it seems to me that the term "fundamentalist" is a judgmental call.
And we are told not to judge.

However, some people particularly in the West, are rugged individualists, who put more trust in themselves than in God. These people with rigid personalities tend to be perfectionists. This is a deadly combination, because a person who is a perfectionist will never be happy with his own father confessor who is also a sinner. LIkewise they will never find the perfect church.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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"Antifundamentalism" = "Mainstream-Fundamenta

Post by Andrej »

The fundament is the part of the house that will not be moved by outside storms.
The fundament is just an other word for the "rock" on which the house of the church is built.
The church can not exist without a "rock" (greek: petros), i.e. a fundament.

If a person hears his conscience, i.e, "God speaks to him", he should follow. He should not say: "I am right and you are wrong" but he might say: "I can not follow you, because it's against my conscience."...but of course this implies: "You are wrong".
This might disturb the other side - feeling uncomfortable that there is a voice somewhere saying "you are wrong". And especially uncomfortable, if a tiny voice inside says "the other person is possibly really right" and "Am I chicken-harded not to follow my conscience in the same way"?
This bad feeling and questions about himself might find relief in the thought: "Might be the other one is bad". The "strictness" which he sees in the "fundamentalist" is mainly the confinement he feels by himself in struggeling with the "unmovable fundamentalist" position - projecting this now in the constructed "rigid" picture on the "fundamentalist".
A person who is really sure in his own decision rooted in his conscience would never be really worried about somebody else, who follows his consience - he would therefore not attack the other one as "fundamentalist" but speak in a calm way about the reasons of his own decisions and the assumed "error" on the other side.

While "antifundamentalism" seems for me to be an example of a widespread unfair and unkind "political" mobbing of minorities I also questioned myself sometimes whether really the attacked "fundamentalists" allways follow only their conscience. These persons seem for me to be in the danger of "prideness of conscience" , the "pleasure of provocation" and the sin of "small believe -> Angst".
They seem often forget that not they but God decides about the fate of this world, e.g. that even "heresies" "must be".

Andrej

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Sabbas
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Post by Sabbas »

Justin I would probably say that Fundamentalism is trying to boil all faith down to short little formulas such as what Five-Point Calvinism has done. It of course also happens in Scholasticism and the use of mathematical logic to explain the doctrine of Penal Substitution. It is all very cold and rational and feels very devoid of love or real humility. The greatest temptation for an Orthodox person in America is to inform others about the Faith in a way in which you act someone trying to show them how to get on the path instead of acting as if you have a monopoly on how to get on the path. This has been very hard for me because I am trying to find out what jurisdiction to join. I do not want it to become a search for correctness and perfection as the Church throughout history has been plagued with problems but at the same time Christ said the gates of hell would prevail against the Church. It certainly seems like the gates of hell have prevailed in certain jurisdictions which means that they are either not part of the Church anymore or I am not seeing the big picture. Hopefully I have not fallen into some sort of Orthodox Fundamentalism on my search but I do believe some of those in the Old Calendarist movement fit under that heading.
Hopefully I will not be wandering or roaming forever.

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