Moderator: Mark Templet
Chrysostomos,
Thank God the Fathers did not take your approach or we might all be Arians, Iconoclaasts, Monophysites or Roman Catholics, which from your perspective probably wouldn't matter much since it's all about love and pretending to be too spiritual to deal with these issues. Have you forgotten that the Church teaches that all the faithful are rational sheop who are responsible for the faith?
I have rarely heard such a sanctimonious copout.
Joseph,
You said: "Thank God the Fathers did not take your approach or we might all be Arians, Iconoclaasts, Monophysites or Roman Catholics."
I thought I made it quite clear in my previous note that I am not a bishop, saint, and far from holy. Therefore, I would never achieve a position to make decisions in regards to the Orthodox faith. I am following the instructions of the Church for those who are common parishioners.
You said: "from your perspective probably wouldn't matter much since it's all about love and pretending to be too spiritual to deal with these issues."
Once again, re-read my two previous posts, if anything, I acknowledge my sinfulness and my many short comings. That I acknowledge rather that I am not spiritual enough to deal with these issues.
You said: "Have you forgotten that the Church teaches that all the faithful are rational sheep who are responsible for the faith?"
That is what I am attempting to do, be responsible. Are we not encouraged to save ourselves, and thousands around us will be saved?
You said: "I have rarely heard such a sanctimonious copout."
I confess, I had to look up the definition of sanctimonious, and here is the definition: "Feigning piety or righteousness: “a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg that looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity” (Mark Twain). "
Having never known me, nor met me in person, it is interesting that you would make such a statement. Once again, in my notes, I have never alluded to my being pious or righteous, if anything just the opposite.
I think the issue is, I gave a response that was not acceptable in your eyes.
Your fellow struggler in Christ,
Rd. Chrysostomos
He said the cop-out was sanctimonious, not the person.
If I follow Chrysostomos' argument correctly, it says, "I am not fully purified, illuminated, and perfected; therefore, I cannot judge for myself what is heresy and what is not."
Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.
What saint has ever claimed purification, illumination, and perfection in this lifetime?
If I met someone who claimed he had achieved perfection, I would know right away he had not.
If we must wait until we have been perfected to be able to recognize heresy . . . well, maybe we're already heretics.
TomS wrote:joseph b wrote:Who in the Church has ever taught the things you are teaching? Can you give me some references or quotes?
Dude. You cannot take writings of the Fathers written to apply to Pagans and Herestics and try to apply them to Orthodoxy.
Follow your Bishops -- Or do they no longer have GRACE in your eyes?
Who are YOU to judge the Bishops?
TomS -
The Latins are the ones with the doctrine of an "infallible Magisterium" that they are to follow blindly.
Orthodox Christians have no such teaching.
We MUST judge our bishops according to what we know of the Deposit of Faith and follow only those who are in line with it.
There have been times in the history of the Church when the vast majority of the hierarchy has been heretical. At those times it is incumbent upon the faithful NOT to follow their bishops.
The Church is all of the people of God, no matter how few they may be.
When Latins speak of "the Church," they really mean the hierarchy - the "Magisterium."
When we say "the Church," we mean all of the faithful.
And we have received instructions to reject even angels - even the Apostles themselves - if they come preaching another Gospel.
How are we to do that if we can't judge for ourselves?
In all the times when heresy prevailed, it was the bishops who led everyone astray. The bishops entered into false unions. In each instance, it was the common ordinary faithful who rebelled against their heirarchy and refused to accept the heresy.
As in most other heresy cases, the bishops entered into the False Union of Florence. When they returned home, their churches were empty because the faithful refused to attend services under the bishops and priests who had fallen. The common, ordinary faithful have always been the final word on the right or wrong of even Ecumenical Councils. The idea that only the super spiritual can determine right and wrong has no basis in the history of the Church. The idea of blindly following bishops is a Roman Catholic understanding of bishops. Furthermore, simply because one has the title of bishop does not mean he has reached that state of illumination that you are automatically according to them. Mere historical succession does not make a bishop - only the holding of the Orthodox Faith. Otherwise, Roman and Anglican bishops are just as valid as any Orthodox.
You do not need to be perfected to know the difference between what the Church taught in the past concerning Rome and the Monophysites and what the Ecumenists are teaching today. Everyone, regardless of their state of spiritual perfection, is responsible for rejecting heresy and refusing to have communion with it. Papal doctrine and Monophysite doctrine have been anathamatized by the Church. Now bishops are having joint prayers and communion with both declaring that we are one. This is a clear rejection of the Orthodox Faith. The Church clearly tells us to flee from such heresy. Why would you blindly follow your bishop away from grace and still think you can obtain illumination?
The only true path to perfection is through the Eucharist, Confession/Absolution and a Grace filled bishop. Such cannot exist among those who fall away from the Orthodox Faith. If it can, then it doesn't matter whether you are Mormon or Baptist.
Stepanov,
What I was saying is that I am in what Hesychasm would profess as the purification stage. IF after passing through that, then one becomes illumined. It is during that illumination stage that I believe one would be able to discern things correctly. I never stated that one had to wait until perfection for having the ability to discern things correctly.
If a Saint, which many have, has seen the uncreated light, they have reached perfection. This is my understanding.
Besides, any saint, who has reached perfection will never state that they have reached such a state, as they have the greatest treasure of all virtues - humility. (St. Basil)
It would be the people who knew him or her who would make such a statement, not the saint themselves.
I never said that we have to wait until perfection to discern heresy. Please re-read my notes, show me where I said this.
Fault me if you will for doing as I do. I speak from my heart. I am not speaking to gain anyone's favor or acceptance. I was relaying what I have chosen to do.
We can all hurl insults, jabs, etc., at one another, and for what outcome? To prove one or another right? Then pride enters in, or
worse yet, prelest.
Through the prayers of the holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ or God, have mercy upon us and save us.
Rd. Chrysostomos
Joseph,
Please re-read my statements and show me where I said one had to be perfected before discerning things rightly? I said during illumination.
You said: "Everyone, regardless of their state of spiritual perfection, is responsible for rejecting heresy and refusing to have communion with it."
Jesus said: "to them much that is given, much shall be required."
The greater the state of their spiritual perfection, the greater that is required of them. To what measure you judge another, it shall be judged of you. I said if I felt my Bishop or Metropolitan was in heresy, I would flee. This is not a blind following, this is a statement of fact. I do not currently believe they are in heresy.
You said: "The only true path to perfection is through the Eucharist, Confession/Absolution and a Grace filled bishop. Such cannot exist among those who fall away from the Orthodox Faith."
I chose the path of St. Gregory Palamas and all those who advocate Hesychasm as the true path. A path that even common parishioners like myself can take. This path, as I mentioned before also includes confession/absolution. Like I said, ridicule me if you wish, that's your perogative.
Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy upon us and save us!
Rd. Chrysostomos
