How do the Orthodox Fathers view fantasy and the imagination

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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Maria
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Post by Maria »

joasia wrote:

Ania,

I think your reference applies more to preventitive measures which is the result of common sense.

It's more along the line of knowing that if there is a slick road and you're driving at night, that you shouldn't speed. Or not to tailgate. Such things are gained by learning about consequences. It doesn't take any imagination to know these things, just common sense.

Exactly, worrying about the slick road can make you tense and overcorrect. Trusting in God, on the other hand, gives you insights.

For example, I was on a freeway in a heavy thunderstorm when an accident suddenly occurred. I had to get to the bank to make a deposit before they closed in 10 minutes or have no money for food. I asked my son to start praying and we prayed the Jesus Prayer. Suddenly I saw a way off the freeway and took it. At the end of the ramp, I had three choices:

(1) take the local roads to the bank and arrive late;
(2) go home and forget the bank;
(3) get back on the same freeway.

I prayed again and clearly felt an inner voice telling me to get back on the freeway. When I did so, without fear, I found that I was the only one on the freeway as the accident was behind me and had totally closed the freeway. I got to the bank with 2 minutes to spare.

Glory to Jesus Christ. Glory to Him forever.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Trusting in God, on the other hand, gives you insights.

And a calmness that everything will be alright. Fantasy doesn't do that. If anything, it creates an emptiness, because at the end of the fantasy or imagination, you are still in the same place.

We must first lift our hearts to God for help. Maria, if you had fantasied that the traffic would just clear away, then you'd probably still be stuck in that traffic. :)

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

joasia wrote:

And a calmness that everything will be alright. Fantasy doesn't do that. If anything, it creates an emptiness, because at the end of the fantasy or imagination, you are still in the same place.

Really? Have you ever heard of Jules Verne? I don't think that any of the astronauts who have stood on the surface of the moon would agree with your conclusion.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Really? Have you ever heard of Jules Verne? I don't think that any of the astronauts who have stood on the surface of the moon would agree with your conclusion.

Tom, why are you starting up again? Jules Verne wrote many books about adventure and they were very intriguing. Seven leagues under the Sea, Around the world in 80 days, Travel to the Center of the Earth(which by the way, Michael Caine was pretty good in the role of Casper).
Forgive me if I didn't write out the correct titles, but you know which books I mean. I also recall Doc, in Back to the Future III, who was inspired by Jules Vernes. I even saw Biography on Jules Verne's life. He was a brilliant writer(by the world). He married a woman he didn't love.

And the astronauts certainly travelled quite a distance. Imagine seeing the world from space and being confined in such a limited realm. Life was held by a thread. WoW!

But, when Jules died and when astronauts die, they will not be judged for their accomplishments in liturature or space expeditions, produced by fantasy and imagination. They will be judge for their faith in Jesus Christ. Even if their fantasies or imaginations have allowed them to accomplish so much for mankind... that is not the goal of mankind. The goal of mankind is to attain the Holy Spirit. Did they do that?

Mankind has created these distractions because they have been slowly led away from God, by you know who.

Jesus Christ doesn't need mankind to accomplish great literary works(by the world's standard, of course) or to travel to the moon...mankind needs that. Chirst's life should be proof enough about how He expected us to live our lives. God wants us to accomplish attaining the Holy Spirit, as St. Seraphim of Sarov explained.

So while people are so preoccupied by writing great literature or travelling to the moon, God wants them to just turn to Him in faith. But, since mankind has fallen from the potential union with God, and is in a state of struggle between God and the evil one...then many distractions will be presented to mankind, by the evil one, to keep us from understanding what God's goal for us is...attainment of the Holy Spirit.

Just read the Bible and see what Christ taught. He didn't talk about making great worldly accomplishments, He talked about His Father's Kingdom. He talked about spiritual matters.

You can be the discoverer for the cure for cancer, but if you're an atheist, you will not get into God's Kingdom. Worldly accomplishments are left for the world...spiritual accomplishments bring a soul close to God.

That is what I meant about being left empty. The soul does not attain a union with God through worldly accomplishments based on fantasy and imagination.

Now, I don't know these men, so their personal struggle is, just that, personal.

But, I assume you were referring to their accomplishments due to their imaginations.

As far as them not agreeing with me...how do you know? Did they tell you that to your face?

What if Jules, on his deathbed, considered all his literary accomplishments turned to dust, because it meant nothing in the face of judgment?

What if the astronauts realized that their efforts of space travel was just a means of trying to find God out there somewhere in a sentient being?

You have your assumptions about what they would think about my comments, and I have my assumptions. Are we going to battle with assumptions or can you make some clearer comments about your personal view.

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ania
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Post by ania »

joasia wrote:

Ania,

I think your reference applies more to preventitive measures which is the result of common sense.

It's more along the line of knowing that if there is a slick road and you're driving at night, that you shouldn't speed. Or not to tailgate. Such things are gained by learning about consequences. It doesn't take any imagination to know these things, just common sense.

Yes, tailgating etc is common sense, (which most people in DC don't have when it comes to driving, I might add). You've missed my point once again.
Perhaps I used a bad example. However, imagination made things that you use every day possible (even that pattern on your headscarf), Now really, I have to go... I think I'm gonna leave this forum for the rest of lent, it's proving to irritating.

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Post by Ebor »

I think this is a way too broad a brush that might seem to cover everything from indoor plumbing to "Pixies in the pea patch" as coming from "Fantasy/Imagination".

Some of it is using intelligence or forethought that God created in us. It has made possible works that preserve life (perhaps to that the people can * survive* long enough to learn about God) and increase knowledge in the Wonders that He created in the Universe.

One of the ways that Humanity is made in the image of God is in the ability, the desire to create, be it music or stories or buildings or any of a myriad of ways. And this comes what what He has created in us, fallen as we are, yet part of His wonders.

Ebor

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

One of the ways that Humanity is made in the image of God is in the ability, the desire to create, be it music or stories or buildings or any of a myriad of ways. And this comes what what He has created in us, fallen as we are, yet part of His wonders.

Well... that is QUITE a fantastical interpretation...but certainly not an Orthodox one. Everybody has their right to have an opnion, just the same.

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