AN ORTHODOX VIEW OF HARRY POTTER

[CGW]

But, since this post is about writings of sorcery, we should stick to that subject, shouldn't we? Perhaps a new post would be more appropriate for discussion about liturature in general.

Well, the originally posted article condemned HP for faults which all literature shares. So we don't need a new thread, I don't think.

And as for "sorcery", the problem all along has been that the furor against HP is largely driven by the failure of a certain type of criticism to discern between magic as it appears in the book and the occult as it appears in reality (and never mind the occult as it is in reality: a loser trap). One of things that is most striking about this is that you in particular, Joasia, fall into "Weekly World News Orthodoxy". You've said things along the way which were every bit as credulous as the beliefs of modern occultists. I don't need you as an authority on the content of the books, because I've read them, and frankly, I have more confidence in my reading. I don't need you as an authority on the occult because (alas) I know too many of these people, and I keep certain of the standard works in my reference books. It all leads to the same conclusion: I don't think you can tell the difference.

Mind you, I have no problem with actual criticism of the the books. But you are not criticising them: you are attacking a fantasy, a self-delusion.

[EHN]

A reader of the books can see that within the context of the story magic is not demonic.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20

[Ephraem]

I don't know that what modern occultists do is demonic either.

Lord have mercy!

[CGW]

Perhaps I was not utterly clear. I meant specifically that I don't see any evidence of actual demons in what I've seen of the occult. I don't mean to imply that they aren't out there, or that this absence somehow makes occultic practices acceptable.

[joasia]

CGW wrote:

Joasia, fall into "Weekly World News Orthodoxy". You've said things along the way which were every bit as credulous as the beliefs of modern occultists.

Really, how so? If anything, I've been more accused of being an Orthodox prude. Probably due to the fact that my head scarf is too tight.

I still don't see any place for supporting magic, sorcery, witchcraft or anything that is not the source of God.

But, I'm not surprised that you didn't retract your comment about the saints' lives as fit only for the dull of mind to read.

because I've read them, and frankly, I have more confidence in my reading.

Prelest.

I don't need you as an authority on the occult because (alas) I know too many of these people,

I never said that I was the authority. I am only repeating the teachings of the holy fathers, who are the authority, who opposed any kind of expression or activity that dealt with a source that is not accepted by God.

How is it that you know so many of these people? You know the saying...like attracts like. We surround ourselves with people who are of the same spirit. I bet you've even done plenty of seances. And of course, we know how much you support halloween.

and I keep certain of the standard works in my reference books

For what purpose? Do you have the black bible too?

It all leads to the same conclusion: I don't think you can tell the difference.

I can tell the difference between the spiritual benefits to the soul when reading the lives and writings of saints as oppose to the spiritual disturbance of peace when reading or watching(for that matter) something concerning the dark force. What we absorb in reading, watching or listening affects our souls. It is a delicate balance and we are not aware of how real the spiritual warefare is. We are not even aware of how we are already effected by it.

If you know so much then you should know how subtle the devil is. He makes things look innocent, but there is an underlying motive of spiritual attack involved.

Just think...this book is loved by most children and adults. The children are the future of the world, and they will be most likely interested in pursuing this realm of magic and wonder. Adults might be amused but they have bills to pay, so the drudgery of reality goes on. But, the children are the sensitive ones. They are more approachable, and since parents let their kids get involved in these so-called innocent interests, which keeps the kids out of their hair, they allow the process of manipulation to continue.

Now just imagine a generation of children who have grown up and have become involved in the interest of magic. And it doesn't stop at magic, because they want to know how magic works, like in the book. So they delve into the psychic world, as many adults are involved in now.

The ability to make objects move at your command and to conjure up material things with an incantation is fascinating. It can't be based on fantasy because there are people who have this ability. We're told that we have the psychic ability to do these things in the other 90% of of brain. Question is, where is the source? How does one get to the source. Simple. Ask for it. And soon enough, there will be an experience that will open the door and the person will want to have this power(because it's not an ability as much as it's a power).

There's no God involved. It's probably a spirit guide that has been able to make a connection because of the person's openess to receive this great force. Or if the person is more prone to a destructive nature, he will go to the dark force, because he will be promised the power to control everything around him. He will be great amongst men.

This is the future of the generation of 12 year olds who are so fascinated by HP. Your children may think it is a very interesting book to read, but what guarantees that they will not, somehow, be more effected by it, in the future. Are you willing to take that chance? Demonic possession is very real. There are those who have been possessed by listening to certain music. You may think this is extreme, but the music that is out there, has a specific message of demonic nature, and after a time, it can take hold of a soul who is not protected.

I'm not making this up. This is not my own opinion. Even Fr. Seraphim Rose has warned us about these demonic influences.

I'm being sincere. I have concerns about the negative spiritual exposure put out in the world. Can you be sincere, too, without the personal attack?

[Miriam]

Hey guys......

Haven't we also been warned about self-righteousness, zealotry, pride, judging others, speech, spouting without thought or care and etc, etc, etc, yet we are blind to those things also. The posts that have been made lately just shows how much, the evil one is laughing at us. Delighting in the conflict and discord he is able to sow. For the sake of our souls...... enough already!

Go and see to your own souls and stop the nastiness that is prevailing here and elsewhere on this forum.....

Miriam

[CGW]

But, I'm not surprised that you didn't retract your comment about the saints' lives as fit only for the dull of mind to read.

Perhaps you should go back, re-read what I said, and then retract this misstatement of it. I don't know about you, Joasia, but I can read fiction/history at the rate of some 300-400 pages a day. There's nothing necessarily wrong with hagiography of itself, but it only goes so far. It's not a sufficient diet for bringht, literate kids.

because I've read them, and frankly, I have more confidence in my reading.

Prelest.

It's called "primary sources". Central to this argument is what the books actually say. You give no evidence of having read them, and persist in what amounts to a misrepresentation. There is no pride, no arrogance in preferring the text itself as an authority on its content over your assertions about it.

I don't need you as an authority on the occult because (alas) I know too many of these people,

I never said that I was the authority.

But you do present yourself in the manner of an authority. After all, you're saying that your reading of the HP books (which you don't seem to have read) is better than mine. Also, when you say that

I am only repeating the teachings of the holy fathers, who are the authority, who opposed any kind of expression or activity that dealt with a source that is not accepted by God.

... that's not all that you're doing. You are repeating them, and you are asserting that they apply in this case. The latter does not come from them; it comes from you. I have a copy of the Philokalia; I can read it for myself. And in particular, having read the HP books, I can make some sort of judgement concerning how your proof texts, read in context, compare with the HP text. I make no claim for the irrefutability of such a judgement, but it is surely true that such a judgement is better founded than that of someone who hasn't/won't read the text being criticized.

How is it that you know so many of these people? You know the saying...like attracts like. We surround ourselves with people who are of the same spirit. I bet you've even done plenty of seances. And of course, we know how much you support halloween.

O Joasia, you are so far behind the times. Seances are very passe-- not that I've ever been to one.

And while we're on the subject of Hallowe'en, nobody needs to take your word for what I said; they can read it for themselves.

and I keep certain of the standard works in my reference books

For what purpose? Do you have the black bible too?

I have no idea what you're talking about a "black bible". And I keep these books on hand so I don't have to rely on the word of others as to what they actually say.

If you know so much then you should know how subtle the devil is. He makes things look innocent, but there is an underlying motive of spiritual attack involved.

OK, I agree. But what makes you think that what you say isn't one of these innocent-looking spiritual attacks?

Just think...this book is loved by most children and adults. The children are the future of the world, and they will be most likely interested in pursuing this realm of magic and wonder.

Now you're presenting your "wisdom" on child psychology and development. I just don't agree that it works this way. Some kids will retreat into this or some other fantasy world, but most won't. The ones that do have other problems to be dealt with anyway.

Miriam has the right idea on this.