AN ORTHODOX VIEW OF HARRY POTTER

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Maria
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Post by Maria »

Ania:

Have you also read the Chronicles of Narnia by CS Lewis? Again, I have not read the HP series and will not do so unless I can find some Christ=like figures in them and moral lessons as taught by CS Lewis through the character developments.

My priest has urged me to read The New Testament, the lives of the saints, and other good books which can help me grow in my faith and in theosis.

I just don't believe that the HP series, being non-Orthodox and a fictional work, will help me or my son grow in theosis at this point unless you can prove otherwise. Even after reading Granger's article, I still remain unconvinced.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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ania
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Post by ania »

joasia wrote:

It's stated in the Bible and you should read the life of Sts. Cyprian and Justina. There is no good that comes from supporting any fantasy of the world of magic.

I have read the life of St Cyprian. He was a great saint, no doubt about it. (Also read the bible, by the by, multiple times).

joasia wrote:

I would not waste my time reading these books. But, I certainly know what it promotes, without reading them.

How, exactly, would you know what it promotes?

joasia wrote:

That's not a very good attitude for a so-called Orthodox. Actually, I am surprised that I would even be arguing such a view on sorcery with a fellow Orthodox. I thought we were suppose to have the same belief system. But, I guess a lot of Orthodox people are delving into other realms.

Reading childrens' books = delving into other realms. Being disapointed that someone is unwilling to acknowledge that people who have first hand knowledge of something might actually know what their talking about = "so-called Orthodox." <<sigh>>

joasia wrote:

What do you want to hear from other fellow Orthodox? That socery is harmless? That the ideas of magic is a fun concept for children to grow up with? What?

See my previous posts, as obviously you missed some things.

joasia wrote:

When you're ready for an "intelligent" debate, I'll be here. But, from what I see, you are naive concerning the detriment of any involvement with sorcery, which includes reading their stupid books. Try reading the lives and writings of saints instead. Why do you waste your brain cells with the stupidity of sorcery?

Once again, see my posts about what I read. Humans only use 10% of their brains anyway, which means I have plenty of brain cells to waste, better it be on harmless liturature then on some other things out there.

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ania
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Post by ania »

Dear Elizabeth,
I have read the Chronicles of Narnia, many many times ("The Horse & His Boy" and "The Silver Chair" being my personal favs out of the series).
Unlike what some people in this discussion seem to think, I am not in any way advocating reading the HP books as a way to help grow in faith and theosis.
I found the books amusing, and a nice way to pass the time on the bus & train rides to and from work (which before I bought a car took over an hour each way some days).
Unlike a lot of people in this forum, I do read for pleasure. I like reading fiction, not necessarily associated with religion. A good Agatha Christie, Terry Pratchett, and sometimes a John Grisham often find their ways to my bookshelf.
I also balance that with reading C.S. Lewis (2 books from his space trilogy arrived by Amazon today, very exciting), lives of saints, etc. I've just finished re-reading "Crime and Punishment." I'm also going to start reading "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, the Birthgiver of God" by St. John Maximovitch, after work today.
I'm not encouraging people to read Harry Potter. If you don't want to, for goodness sake, don't. If you want to, by all means, go for it.
I'm saying there is no harm in reading it though. If you want spiritual enlightenment, you probably won't find it here, but it's not oozing evil, like some people here seem to think, and that is all I’m trying to say.

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CGW
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Post by CGW »

Let's start out with the "usual misinformation" part:

For our readers who do not already know, Harry Potter is the fictional character created by J. K. Rowling for the Harry Potter series of books and films, designed primarily for children. Harry Potter’s story is that of a youth raised in a school for sorcery who learns witchcraft with surprising speed and aptitude.

Now, this is incorrect. I don't recall that Harry is ever referred to as a "warlock", and in the book "witch" is reserved for females. Harry is a "wizard", and the invocation of spirits implied by the use of "witch/warlock" never happens in the books.

It's also not true that he "learns witchcraft with surprising speed and aptitude". One of the issues in the first three books is that he does not learn magic readily, and indeed it isn't until the fourth book that his skills begin to catch up with what others expect of him.

There's thus no real point in bothering with the "witchcraft" angle because it's just not there in the books. (And judging from what has been said thus far about how magic abilities are used, I have to imagine that witchcraft in the sense of invoking spirits would be considered insanely dangerous.) What is worth comment is this passage:

The Harry Potter books are classed not simply as fiction but as fantasy literature. They use detailed imagery to produce an unreal picture in the imagination of the brain. The imagination has such a strong influence over mankind that we are warned by numerous Fathers of the Church to reject the images of dreams and scorn fantasies of the imagination in favor of what the Philokalic Fathers call “pure intellections,” that is, abstract thinking free of images.

The problem is that there is no such thing.

Belief in "pure intellection" is simply a lack of sensitivity to the images that are hidden in every text.

Now, I don't have a copy of the Philokalia handy, but there references I've seen to the citation from St. Hesychios indicate that he is especially talking of a sort of what these days would be called meditation. One could not walk down the street in the mental state he appears to be describing. Nor could one read any text that way-- not even scripture, nor even his own writings. So when the author says:

Because it is precisely through the imagination that the evil one first attacks us in order to lead the soul captive, Orthodox Christians are to avoid as much as possible not only the Potter series but all fantasy literature.

... this is an attack on all fiction of any kind, and practically an attack upon reading itself. Reading comprehension requires imagination.

Regarding so-called “good witchcraft,” be it known that any practice which seeks to manipulate future events according to the wish or whim of the practitioner -- whether his or her intentions are “good” or bad -- is always evil, since it does not account for and even contradicts the Divine Will.

One might as well condemn someone for preferring to wear clothes that fit! The practice of "seek[ing] to manipulate future events according to the wish or whim of the practitioner" is called planning. Is planning evil? I think not!

Harry Potter, therefore, is not appropriate for anyone to read. The books are intended as an initiation into the world of witchcraft.

And here we go. Never mind that nothing has been said to defend such a claim-- the problem is that the author is now using the very tools he has denied himself. Reading these words, you are supposed to conjure up a fantasy of Ms. Rowling as planning out a series of books intended to make the occult enticing. And as for the next passage:

For anyone who doubts or denies this, let him visit a Barnes and Nobles or Borders bookstore and observe which books accompany Harry Potter on display: the series is surrounded by books about witchcraft aimed especially at teenage girls, and it is rarely, if ever, prominently displayed among other children’s books.

... this is, in my experience, utterly untrue-- and anyway, Ms. Rowling doesn't have that much control over this.

I just went to Borders the other day. HP was, of course, standing by itself in the front, and also had some shelf space in the kids' section. Occultish books? Over in a different section, next to the case of tarot decks. Oh, and the Scholastic book fair. Occultish books? You have to be kidding!!! The set up shop in the public schools; the cultural conservatives would take them apart for doing something so stupid!

But besides, there's that image again: a picture of Harry Potter next to the Pictorial Key to the Tarot. It's a pleasing fantasy for some, but it is still a fantasy.

As usual, there's no addressing here of the moral points taught in the HP books. And it's hardly surprising, because this teaching is utterly conventional, conservative, and essentially Christian.

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CGW
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Naivete

Post by CGW »

joasia wrote:

When you're ready for an "intelligent" debate, I'll be here. But, from what I see, you are naive concerning the detriment of any involvement with sorcery, which includes reading their stupid books. Try reading the lives and writings of saints instead. Why do you waste your brain cells with the stupidity of sorcery?

OK, to recap:

Ms. Rowling is church-going Methodist-- not an occultist. If you'ld bother to find anything out about this you would already know that.

As far as being an authority on what is in the books, I and Ania have some, because we've actually read them. You do not, because you won't.

Maybe your children are dull enough to be satified with the lives of the saints as reading matter; mine are not. I was not. And I suspect that at age ten the Philokalia was beyond me.

What this seems to me to be really about is that ranting about Harry Potter is a easy alternative to any kind of serious work on one's holiness. Sanctimony is easier than sanctitude, and this is all about the former.

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Ephraem
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Post by Ephraem »

I find it interesting that folks here give the Evil One so little credit. Is the Devil an uncrafty dullard who cannot act without giving off copious sulfuric vapors? Far from it! He works under many layers of subtlety, very often beyond the capacity of our immediate awareness. One of the hallmarks of evil is the mixing of truth and falsehood; all it takes is one little lie slipping by undetected to result in the incredible twisting of what should be as straight as an arrow.

As for the imagination, it is of course a great gift. But every gift can be misused (and usually is), to our own detriment. I've been wondering if it is not spiritually unhealthy to use the imagination to picture in the mind things that are not real--that is, things that do not occur according to the law of nature. Should the mind only dwell on what is real? Does God want us to think and have fantasies of things that are not? Does the Devil thereby seduce us into fruitless dalliances, harmless entertainments, and other so-called benign distractions to keep us far from the narrow way?

Does the Lord bless your reading?

Ephraem
~He who seeth his own sins, seeth not the sins of others.

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CGW
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The Devil

Post by CGW »

Ephraem wrote:

I find it interesting that folks here give the Evil One so little credit.

I would think you would see that I credit him with being able to work through the words of the pious.

As for the imagination, it is of course a great gift. But every gift can be misused (and usually is), to our own detriment. I've been wondering if it is not spiritually unhealthy to use the imagination to picture in the mind things that are not real--that is, things that do not occur according to the law of nature.

Well, that would get rid of all stories with talking animals, for starters.

One of the reasons that fantasy is used as a vehicle for tales of morality is that it helps to isolate what is morally real about the story. In a sense, it is a means of intellectual abstraction, because it pulls the principles of moral conflict outside of one's preconceptions.

In the case of HP, magic is essentially a cross between a talent and a kind of technology. The proposition within the context of the story is that magic in the story on the whole is morally neutral, and acquires its moral color by how it is used. It is therefore being used (from a story perspective) to heighten the issue of moral choice. And what do we find? Harry is made morally to grow up very quickly, whether he wants it or not (and mostly, he doesn't). Already in the third book he is faced with choosing life or death over a man who is certainly guilty of bringing about the deaths of his parents.

The issue of moral reality here doesn't have much to do with the fantastic setting of the story; plenty of ordinary fiction is morally unreal. And for that matter, even hagiography: does the anti-iconoclasm of the empress Irene undo her murderous intent towards others in the royal household?

And furthermore, I see here often enough wild fantasies about the real world.

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