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George Australia
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Post by George Australia »

1937 Miraculous Cross wrote:

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how the New Calendar matches up 100% with the Patristic Calendar?

Let me explain as simply as I can.
You are confusing the words "Calendar" and "Menaion".
According to the New Calendar Menaion, February 18th is the feast of St. Leo the Great. According to the Old Calendar, February 18th is the Feast of St. Leo the Great. According to the New Calendar, February 19th is the Feast of St. Philothea of Athens. According to the Old Calendar, February 19th is the feast of St. Philothea of Athens. According to the New Calendar, February 20th is the feast of St. Leo Bishop of Catania. According to the Old Calendar, February 20th is the feast of St. Leo Bishop of Catania....are you seeing a pattern developing here Nektarios?
You are not dense. But there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

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George Australia
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Post by George Australia »

joasia wrote:

Well, I'm still confused. I thought that there were two calendars, Julian and Gregorian. Period. And that they are 13 days apart.

Despite what "priestmark" tries to tell you, the "Revised Julian" and Gregorian Calendar are not the same thing. To put it simply, the Church's Menaion is the Cycle of feasts, is it not? The Cycle of feasts in the Julian and Revised Julian are identical but occur 13 days apart, and they are both vastly different to the cycle of feasts in the Gregorian Calendar.
The "smoke and mirrors" priestmark is using is basically this:

If the Julian Calendar is "A", the Revised Julian Calendar is "B" and the Gregorian Calendar is "C", then priestmark is saying:
"C" is uncanonical.
"B=C"
Therefore "B" is uncanonoical.

In reality though, as I've tried to explain in so many different ways
"B" bears little resemblance to "C" and is identical to "A".

The Church Menaion is a cycle, it is not linear . The Julian and Revised Julian Menaions are identical cycles set 13 days apart. It's like having two identical cog-wheels, lying one on top of the other and rotating it by 13 cogs-they are still identical, but 13 cogs out of sync. If, as all these stubborn people insist,the Gregorian Menaion is identical to the Revised Julian Menaion, then basic common-sense should tell them that it must also be identical to the Julian Menaion, by which logic everyone including we who are Old Calendarist fall under the anathema against the Gregorian Menaion. They are so set in their ways, they don't even see that they are anathemising themselves!

The Gregorian "Menaion" was anathemized, therefore these people say that, so is the Revised Julian Menaion. But the Revised Julian Menaion (Cycle of feasts) is identical to the Julian Menaion. So, by this logic, the Julian Menaion is anathema. Why they can't see this is beyond me.

I also wish to see a return to the use of a common calendar in the Church. But I will not try to do so underhandedly by spreading confusion and falsehood and encouraging schism. The New Calendar should not have been introduced, but I'll be cold and lying in my grave before I'll ever utter a falsehood by calling it the "Gregorian Calendar".

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

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priestmark
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Post by priestmark »

The off-setting of the Orthodox Menaion by 13 days to make it coincide with the major feasts of the Roman Catholic Menaion is commonly called the Gregorian Calendar reckoning of the Menaion. Even more commonly it is abbreviated as the Gregorian or New Calendar while still being equivalent to what others call the Revised Julian Calendar reckoning of the Orthodox Menaion. Semantics.

In the 16th century when the Gregorian Calendar was anathematized under Patriarch Jeremias, it was not the Western Menaion they were referring to, but the calendar by which the Menaion is reckoned. Even today the various Orthodox Churches differ in some of the dates by which they celebrate certain saints. Does this mean they do not follow the same Menaion – of course not!

It is simply more smoke and mirrors to say that we are only talking about the Menaion. And in spite of proclamations denying such participation, it is “spreading confusion and falsehood” to persist in defending the very cause of the 20th century schism by the followers of the Revised Julian Calendar innovation. The Orthodox majority who have changed nothing are not the cause of schism by refusing to join this schismatic innovation.

For purposes of discussion, everyone should be able to agree that The Revised Julian Calendar reckoning = the Menaion as expressed by the Revised Julian = the Orthodox Menaion as expressed on the Gregorian Calendar.

So call it what you want. The fact remains that the disconnect created by following this innovation results in uncanonical observations (e.g. Pascha after St Marks) confusion in the service texts from the Menaion (e.g. St George during the Triodion, or the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste not during the Holy 40 days, as would be the case this year) and the reduction or even loss of Orthodox praxis (e.g. Apostle’s Fast), not to minimize the primary objection: of its being a primary cause of disunity among believers.

To focus on the Menaion is reductionism which only convinces the simplistic. The Menaion is not the only reckoning in the Church. The Menaion has always had an irrefutable relationship with the Paschalion and Triodion.

The Paschalion is based on both the lunar cycles and the solar year, but incorporates the specific condition that Pascha must fall after the first full moon occurring after the solar-calendar based date defined for the Vernal Equinox. The Alexandrian astronomers who established the Paschalion in the 4th century defined/fixed this date as always being Mar 21(J) by the Julian reckoning.

On the other hand, the empiricist astronomical event marking the beginning of Spring is this year Mar 7/20 (J / RJ-G) at 7:33 am EST. The Church’s fixed date of Mar 21(RJ), is the next day. The next full moon is on Mar 25 (G-RJ) (Mar 12 J) so all the requirements are in place for the Gregorian observation of Pascha. In the West, the next Sunday is Easter.

If the Revised Julian reckoning were exactly the same as the Gregorian then Pascha would also be the very next Sunday – March 27 (G-RJ). But through some mighty mental gymnastics the RJ now shifts to the Church's fixed date for the Vernal Equinox (which is the only real difference between it and the Gregorian Calendar) in order to celebrate Pascha with the rest of the Church (as required). Intersting to those who care about astronomical accuracy is that the Gregorian date (which the RJ followers use to tell time) for the Orthodox Vernal Equinox (Mar 21) is April 3.

The Orthodox do not celebrate Pascha until the Sunday falling after the Julian date of Mar 21 and after the next full moon on April 11(J) this year. That next Sunday is April 18 by the Church’s Calendar, but that same Sunday is uncanonically May 1 by the Revised Julian abomination.

To use another’s metaphor, the Revised Julian reckoning of the Menaion is a clock that is always wrong (owing to those 13 stripped cogs) with respect to the Triodion and/or Paschalion.

It should be noted that the Western Christians who follow the Gregorian Menaion are fully self-consistent with respect to their Paschalion, as are the “Old Calendarist” Orthodox. It is only the “Revised Julian” which is inconsistent (except in rare years, like last year, when Gregorian and Revised Julian reckonings were exactly the same). It has been said that the Church could choose to follow any calendar. This is true, but to be fully consistent with the Paschalion as the Revised Julian only very coarsely attempts, it would first have to figure out how celebrating the Resurrection before Passover (as do western christians this year) is consistent with the intention of the Church which set all this in place (in fill awareness of astronomical inaccuracies) in the 4th century.

Following the Orthodox Paschalion is necessary. Apparently disrupting the relationship of the Menaion with both the Tridion and Paschalion is somehow justifiable?

priest Mark
aka "priestmark" (what does that " " mean? Should "snigger" marks be added to those who disagree with us?)

=======
for those amongst the older participants here, I offer this:
You can call it J,
or you can calls it RJ,
but you doesn't hast to call it Gregorian!

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George Australia
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Post by George Australia »

priestmark wrote:

The off-setting of the Orthodox Menaion by 13 days to make it coincide with the major feasts of the Roman Catholic Menaion is commonly called the Gregorian Calendar reckoning of the Menaion.

"Commonly called" by whom? You seem to be pulling statistics out of thin air. I've never heard it called the "Gregorian reckoning of the Menaion" until you just wrote it.

priestmark wrote:

In the 16th century when the Gregorian Calendar was anathematized under Patriarch Jeremias, it was not the Western Menaion they were referring to, but the calendar by which the Menaion is reckoned. It is simply more smoke and mirrors to say that we are only talking about the Menaion.

Really? Then why the constant insistance by "strict Traditionalists" such as yourself and Nektarios and the GOC that the words used in the 1583 Sigillion anathemised the Gregorian "Pascalion and Menaion."
See http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 3377#23377
and the TOC version of the Sigillion at: http://www.orthodoxfaith.com/calendar_rudder.html . I believe the relevant section is article 7 of ther Sigillion.
So what you are saying now is that the Sigillion doesn't mean "Paschalion and Menaion", but means "Calendar"- well you'd better email "Archbishop Nicholas of Athens and All Greece" to change the wording of the Sigillion on his website as well.

priestmark wrote:

And in spite of proclamations denying such participation, it is “spreading confusion and falsehood” to persist in defending the very cause of the 20th century schism by the followers of the Revised Julian Calendar innovation. The Orthodox majority who have changed nothing are not the cause of schism by refusing to join this schismatic innovation.

That is one interpretation of what happened. Now let me tell you what most of the cosmos accepts as what happened. According to the rest of the Cosmos apart from yourself, most Old Calendarists did not fall into schism over the New Calendar. Russia, Jerusalem, Serbia,etc all remained in Communion with the New Calendarists. You cannot blame the New Calendarists because some over-excited Old Calendarists decided to declare a "Schism" without thinking and now find themselves in a right mess.

priestmark wrote:

For purposes of discussion, everyone should be able to agree that The Revised Julian Calendar reckoning = the Menaion as expressed by the Revised Julian = the Orthodox Menaion as expressed on the Gregorian Calendar.

How can anyone agree to something which denies basic logic? How can you ask that people should believe that the Cycle of Feasts is the same in the Gregorian and Revised Julian Menaia when they are not? This is what cult leaders do, they insist that their cult followers believe them when they insist on illogical "truths".

priestmark wrote:

If the Revised Julian reckoning were exactly the same as the Gregorian then Pascha would also be the very next Sunday – March 27 (G-RJ). But through some mighty mental gymnastics the RJ now shifts to the Church's fixed date for the Vernal Equinox (which is the only real difference between it and the Gregorian Calendar) in order to celebrate Pascha with the rest of the Church (as required). Intersting to those who care about astronomical accuracy is that the Gregorian date (which the RJ followers use to tell time) for the Orthodox Vernal Equinox (Mar 21) is April 3.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that the New Calendarists are using the date of the Vernal Equinox set by the Fathers of the First Oecumenical Council (March 21) whereas we who follow the Old Calendar now have to change the date of the Vernal Equinox to April 3. You seem to be condemning the New Calendarists for following the First Oecumenical Council....

priestmark wrote:

The Orthodox do not celebrate Pascha until the Sunday falling after the Julian date of Mar 21 and after the next full moon on April 11(J) this year. That next Sunday is April 18 by the Church’s Calendar, but that same Sunday is uncanonically May 1 by the Revised Julian abomination.

According to the Canons, there are four criteria which the Orthodox Pascha must meet. The four criteria state that Pascha is the
1) First Sunday following
2)the first full moon following
3) the Vernal equinox, provided that
4) The Sunday of Pascha is after the Jewish Nomical Pascha.
So the New Calendarists are not "performing mental gymnastics" as you put it, they are simply observing the Canons of the Church just as we are. They meet these criteria just as we do. In fact, they meet them using the date of the Vernal Equinox set by the First Ecumenical Council, whereas we have had to change the date of the Vernal Equinox to April 3- isn't that ironic? They don't need to perform any more "mental gymnastics" than we do to calculate the date of Pascha.

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

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Chrysostomos
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Post by Chrysostomos »

OOD,

Now that George has responded to your question, could you
respond to my question to you?

In fact, that their changes have brought such divisions is just more evidence that they are not Orthodox; that is, because whenever the Orthodox change something it is for the glory of God, which always promotes unity.

So were the changes by Patriarch Nikon correct and did they bring glory to God OOD?

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priestmark
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Post by priestmark »

George Australia wrote:

there are four criteria which the Orthodox Pascha must meet [...]
3) the Vernal equinox, provided that
4) The Sunday of Pascha is after the Jewish Nomical Pascha.

Nope. There are only 3. Point 4 is a later addition. The Orthodox Paschalion from Alexandria is set up in complete harmony with the appearance of Sirius,the flooding of the Nile, the Passover, etc... As such, it is simply impossible for Pascha to preceed Passover when the Vernal Equinox is Mar 21 (Point 3) as per the Julian Calendar (a nuance you seem intent on not grasping). With such a harmonious relationship (which is of course broken by using the Revised Julian = Gregorian Calendar), it was completely unnecessary to specify a point 4. It can't happen inside the Old Calendar. It is a criterion which is only necessary if you tell time by the Gregorian Calendar. Point 4 exists only to maintain the charade that the Julian Old Calendar is not the only Orthodox Calendar. But it is required, and foisted as a deception upon the unsuspecting, in order to explain those years, such as this one, when without this facade, it is clearly revealed that, in the one and only Orthodox Paschalion, Mar 21 is determined by the Old Calendar, not the Gregorian/Revised Julian which is anathema.

George Australia wrote:

So the New Calendarists are not "performing mental gymnastics" as you put it, they are simply observing the Canons of the Church just as we are.

No, they are not following the Church's Calendar (= the Julian Calendar) by which Mar 21 is determined by the one and only Orthodox Paschalion.

George Australia wrote:

They meet these criteria just as we do. In fact, they meet them using the date of the Vernal Equinox set by the First Ecumenical Council, whereas we have had to change the date of the Vernal Equinox to April 3- isn't that ironic?

No, not ironic, it is simply wrong. We changed nothing. You have it completely inverted (or rather 'triple half-twist' ed). It is only April 3 by the "revised Julian" aka "Gregorian" calendars, not by the Church's calendar. How could someone who claims to follow the Church's calendar make such a mistake? You are quite confused and seemingly unwilling to see the Orthodox way.

priest Mark
ROCA

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George Australia
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Post by George Australia »

A very deep sigh escaped my lips when I got an email notification of a reply on this topic- so loud that my staff rushed in to check on me. And when I opened the link, they rushed in again when I let out a deep groan.

priestmark wrote:

Nope. There are only 3. Point 4 is a later addition. The Orthodox Paschalion from Alexandria is set up in complete harmony with the appearance of Sirius,the flooding of the Nile, the Passover, etc...

I have just pulled the Rudder off my bookshelf and opened to page 9.
I see four canonical criteria for the date of Pascha.

priestmark wrote:

As such, it is simply impossible for Pascha to preceed Passover when the Vernal Equinox is Mar 21 (Point 3)as per the Julian Calendar (a nuance you seem intent on not grasping).

Sir, I ask you to take a deep breath for a moment and listen to what I say.
March 21 is no longer the date of the Vernal Equinox on the Julian Calendar. Due to the phenomenon known as the "Progression of the Equinoxes" (which, by the way, is an objective, natural phenomenon not caused by the introduction of the New Calendar :) ), the date of the Vernal Equinox on the Julian Calendar is currently March 8.( I apologise for my typo in my last post. April 3 is my wife's birthday!)
Even if we are ignorant of the progression of the equinoxes, just think about it for a moment: if the Revised Julian Calendar has the Vernal Equinox as March 21, how can the Julian Calendar also have it as March 21 when they are 13 days apart? The Vernal Equinox is an objective phenomenon which occurs on only one day per year. Due to the further progression of the Equinoxes, it is currently on March 20 on the Civil Calendar as you yourself said, however at the First Ecumenical Council it was March 21, the New Calendarists also count the Vernal Equinox as March 21 on the Civil Calendar (not March 20th as do the Heterodox). March 21 on the Revised Julian Calendar is March 8 on the Julian Calendar. As the Progression of the Equinoxes continue, the Revised Julian date of March 21 will be so far from the Vernal Equinox that the heterdox Easter (determined by the Gregorian Date of the Vernal Equinox) and New Calendar Pascha (determined by the Revised Julian date of March 21) will no longer coincide after the year AD 2698.
We who follow the Julian Calendar must determine the date of the Vernal Equinox by the Civil (Revised Julian) date of March 21, which is March 8 on the Julian Calendar.

priestmark wrote:

We changed nothing.

Yes we did, we changed the date of the Vernal Equinox according to the Julian Calendar. We have now have it on March 8, whereas the New Calendarists have it on March 21 as did the Fathers of the First Oecumenical Council. You see, the Progression of the Equinoxes was the very reason the Gregorian Calendar was introduced and the Julian Calendar revised.

priestmark wrote:

How could someone who claims to follow the Church's calendar make such a mistake? You are quite confused and seemingly unwilling to see the Orthodox way.

Right back at you.

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

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