ROCOR PROPERTY AND THE UNION

[John Haluska]

"My apologies to all who take offense to this."

John

[TomS]

"My apologies to all who take offense to this."

John

I did not take offense to anything you said. I was simply offering you spritual advice.

I am Greek Orthodox and think that all the Russian Churches should move back under the MP.

[John Haluska]

Tom,

Thank you.

You stated:

“I did not take offense to anything you said. I was simply offering you spritual advice.”

And

”I am Greek Orthodox and think that all the Russian Churches should move back under the MP.”

Whether you believe me or not, what has been written pertains exactly to what you have referred.

I have stated elsewhere that I am tactless, and do not mince words. You yourself have said the same about yourself. To some that is offensive, to others it is, just “them” (or just “me”). And believe it or not I do try to work out my salvation…it is just that some things have to be “aired” so that the “air” may be cleared. If it is, so-be-it…if is not, then so-be-it.

I say again,

“I mean NO offense...to anyone.”

Per your last statement above…and being who appears to be a “like” person as I, may I ask you:

“What are your thoughts on who and what the Moscow patriarchate is?”

“When you say “under”, why do you phrase it that way?”

“Do you mean to infer that the Moscow patriarchate is somehow “over”, or “ruling”, or an entity which comprises a whole to which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is somehow “outside” of as in being a “part” of it.”

In more than one place have I quoted material, which is both historic and accurate regarding just this issue.

If you agree, as for an initial ‘debate’ parameter, allow me to say this:

“I contend that the Moscow patriarchate is NOT (please disregard “email protocol” as it is nonsense; caps are caps to emphasize a term in writing) a “whole” to which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia somehow “belongs”.

I have stated, as have numerous hierarchs, clergy and laymen more versed than I on this aspect, that I contend:

“There is but ONE Russian Orthodox Church.”

“It” is comprised of the following:

1. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (the free part),

2. The Catacomb Church (the much suffering part),

And

1. The Moscow patriarchate (the “ailing part of It”-as per hierarchs and clergy own statements).”[/b]

That is my debate contention and I concede to your statement as being a starting point:

“I am Greek Orthodox and think that all the Russian Churches should move back under the MP” as a contention for debate.

I ask you to prove why the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia should,

1. “…Move back under the MP…”, and

and

1. How the “MP” is a “whole” as opposed to be a “part of” a “whole”.

Do you agree?

Thank you very much. I look forward to your response.

John

[TomS]

I will respond in detail over the weekend.

However, let me say thatyou are correct; the term "under" was really not the best choice. What I meant to say was "in communion" with.

And even then it is more complex. As an example -- in the GOA when Spyridon was appointed Archbishop he was tasked to "rein in" the GOA. The EP did not like the independant mindset of the GOA clergy and faithful. Spyridon came to the Cathedral in Washington, DC and told the Priests and Parish Council that they had the "honor" of being selected to be "the first EP's Cathedral" in the US. All they had to do was turn the deed over to the Archdiocese. The Priests and the Parish council refused saying that "we recieved not one dime to build this cathedral from the EP or the American Archdiocese. This Cathedral belongs to this community."

[joasia]

Tom says:

Until you have fully worked out your salvation, I would suggest that you not be so focused on real estate.

It takes a LIFETIME to work out our salvations, Tom. John's commentary on what will happen with the properties is a very serious issue. All the MP care about is power and they will gain a truck load of it IF they take over ALL of ROCOR's properties. Their forced take-over of the monasteries shows their intentions. They don't care about serving God...they care about being gods, themselves and bringing us down to our knees in servitude to them.

I did not take offense to anything you said. I was simply offering you spritual advice.

"First, remove the beam from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye." (Matt. 7;5)

I am Greek Orthodox and think that all the Russian Churches should move back under the MP.

That's a silly comment, if I ever heard one. What are you trying to prove? That you know what's best for ROCOR?

I am Greek Orthodox too, but I go to a ROCOR church and I see their struggles. How comfortable you must be to sit in front of the computer and make this decision for those who have suffered over 80 years about this issue.

Hold the presses, boys. Tom has all the answers. Just join the MP.

Maybe you should read up about what they went through since the bolshevik, communist take over. Did you know that there were over 50 million Orthodox Christians murdered by the communists between 1927 and 2005?

The people I've talked to in my church are in their 80's. They are the ones blessed to have survived. They are the children who carry on the faith of Orthodoxy of Holy Russia along with St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Theophane the Recluse, St. John of Krondstadt, St. Tikhon the Patriarch, St. John Maximovich and all the others inbetween.

But, Tom says we should just join the MP. Since he knows so much, we should just do what he says.

[Justin Kissel]

John

I'm guessing that this means you won't be contacting your bishop(s).

[TomS]

But, Tom says we should just join the MP. Since he knows so much, we should just do what he says.

Sophia!

Sister, I am humbled by your support and rejoice that you have decided to embrace the wisdom of others. I know that it is difficult when the realization occurs that one has been hasty in their judgement of the opinions of others, but please take comfort in the knowledge that we are ALL but babes in this world. I applaud your effort and assure you that I am here to offer further council whenever you should require it!