Moderator: Mark Templet
All that is left for us confused, PhD-less, misguided, guideless souls is to pray that God will guide us to where we need to be.
God has already guided you in great detail.
Motivated by that which is right, the mind finds the truth; but motivated by some passion, it will reject it. - Saint Thalassius of Africa, Philokalia, I, 1:58
joasia wrote:Just because I am going to a ROCOR church doesn't mean that I agree with their vague statements and their mistaken actions. After all, it's run by men who have big egos. Only time will tell.
Which men, precisely? You've obviously never met Vl. Lavr or Vl Hilarian (amoung others, who I don't know as well.).
Milla,
Now it is human nature to be overly kind to someone who had done you a great kindness. Because of that, and because I respect you generally, I am hesitant to say something to you. But on the other hand I want to say something about the ROCOR bishops...
I do not know that all of our bishops are great. Some of them might be creeps and heretics, for all I know. Nonetheless, even "bad bishops" have the dignity of being a bishop, unless synodal action is taken against them or they openly preach heresy; and even bad clergy (even priests) are protected from personal accusations by the canons, even if those accusations happen to be accurate. One of the things that brings about simultaneous respect and dismay in me is the way our bishops remain silent and refuse to engage in the various debates. They try to walk a thin line, on the one hand saying who they believe to be schismatic for the protection of the flock, but on the other hand refusing to launch into (and forbidding their priests to launch into) real-life and internet diatribes, authoring and publishing polemical literature and building personal websites, whose sole purpose is the refutation and eventual destruction of other hierarchs and synods. This type of apologetic abounds in almost all other traditionalist groups. But it is at a minimum in ROCOR, and it is my distinct impression that if it were up to our bishops it would be almost wholly absent in ROCOR, excepting only those statement made by the bishops themselves for the well-being of the flock. As as egghead constantly looking for information, I find this frustrating. As an Orthodox Christian I find this edifying. I hope you will forgive me if I have offended you.
And I again reiterate my asking of forgiveness from Sean, my post to you was indeed unChristian.
Justin:
You have not offended me at all....in fact you have put words to what I have felt all along and have been unable to put into my own words. I have met both kinds of clergy ....the kind you avoid because your heart tells you that it is not the place for you and the kind that draw you in because your heart tells you their are good people. Of course even your heart can be wrong at times.
I stay with ROCOR because I have not yet lost all hope, even with the wounds I have personally suffered. I keep hoping and praying that God will "en-wisen" our bishops and clergy(for lack of a better word)and lead them in the proper course.
The silence on the part of the bishops has always bothered me. It's the sheep mentality thing I've mentioned before. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that, that strategy is past it's time and because of the times --- a poor one for the church to hold onto. The results can be seen all around us. Some will say that we are bound to obedience, but we are also bound to question, for ultimately we are responcible for our own choices. A big problem for those of us who are not so verse in church theology as some.
Keep me in your prayers,
Milla
Milla wrote:
Not that I believe any of them will have the stamina or courage to do so (my own opinion) for they seem to have more faith in themselves and their "wisdom" than faith in God and His Wisdom.
Oh my! You have just described a gnostic. :shock:
Perphaps our Bishops need to get down on their collective knees for a thousand days like St Seraphim and pray that God enlightens them with knowledge and wisdom.
You can lead a horse to water, but....
Besides, the action of kneeling means that they would have to admit to themselves, that THEY need guidance. Looks to me, like they feel they know where to guide us. Sorry, but I brought my own compass.
Ania wrote:
Which men, precisely? You've obviously never met Vl. Lavr or Vl Hilarian
What Vladikas may say to a laywoman and what they are deciding behind closed doors are two different things. That's why I say, time will tell. The actions will determine their decisions. And that is why I also don't want to believe in everything I hear about who said what. Words are fleating and disappear in the wind. Actions over a period of time, will indicate the goal.
Milla wrote:
I stay with ROCOR because I have not yet lost all hope, even with the wounds I have personally suffered. I keep hoping and praying that God will "en-wisen" our bishops and clergy(for lack of a better word)and lead them in the proper course.
This is why St. Seraphim of Sarov will come back. Because God knows the struggle of the Russian people and will send His light to them. The question is, which bishops will follow.
Some will say that we are bound to obedience, but we are also bound to question, for ultimately we are responcible for our own choices.
That is why I question those who are the hierarchy. I want to know where the ultimate truth exists. Because, now I have become aware of Orthodoxy...I am responsible for my choices concerning my faith.
A problem for those of us who are not so verse in church theology as some.
We all have souls and because we care so much, we have this uneasy feeling. It is a sign that we DO recognize that something is wrong. It doesn't take a theologian to figure it out.
Dear Justin,
You said this regarding the ROCOR bishops:
Code: Select all
[quote]One of the things that brings about simultaneous respect and dismay in me is the way our bishops remain silent and refuse to engage in the various debates. They try to walk a thin line, on the one hand saying who they believe to be schismatic for the protection of the flock, but on the other hand refusing to launch into (and forbidding their priests to launch into) real-life and internet diatribes, authoring and publishing polemical literature and building personal websites, whose sole purpose is the refutation and eventual destruction of other hierarchs and synods. This type of apologetic abounds in almost all other traditionalist groups. But it is at a minimum in ROCOR,[/quote]While this is good about ROCOR bishops, it is no different with the bishops of the TOC of Greece or others. You say this "type of apologetic abounds in almost all other traditionalist groups". Yes, this occurs from laymen on these internet groups, but not from TOC bishops. In fact, there are a couple of ROCOR priests and an OCA bishop on the Paradosis List-- and other Lists -- that are very vocal and "apologetic".
(I won't name names here.)
So, I'm not trying to be contrary to your comment, but I don't think the ROCOR bishop's silence on matters to be anything unique. For example, when is the last time you heard anything from the Matthewite bishops? My bishops are some of the most maligned bishops, yet we have no apologists writing books or articles nor web sites blasting others. My point is that regarding ROCOR one needs to look at what the bishops are doing, not what they say or don't say. My perspective, having come from ROCOR, is that they say things to keep the flock intact, while they march on towards union with the MP and concelebrate with ecumenists.
BTW, I don't mean any of this to be offensive to you personally.
in Christ,
Nectarios