ROCOR

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Sun 16 January 2005 9:32 pm

Generally, ROCOR is more friendly towards those Greek Old Calendarist groups who do not condemn the new calendarists and ecumenists , and are not quite as friendly with those groups who are "less moderate".

Maybe in your area.

ROCOR has no intention of supporting the new calendarist ecumenists. How can they? They follow the old calendar and ecumenism is out of the question. There have been clergy who have participated with these groups, but this is a matter of lack of control on the part of the Metropolitan. And it is a shame on the part of the clergy. MY priests would never accept a layman's participation of this kind. But, they know that everyone goes through spiritual trials. They try to be there for them, but they would NEVER suggest that it is the right thing to do.

Perhaps, that is the confusion. Some priests don't want to come right out with it. They tread lightly. For some, they will be lenient, for others, they will put their foot down. It is the burden of leading a flock. I have all the respect for that.

And let's not forget the rumours that develop due to the weakness of mankind. Don't believe everything you hear about ROCOR.

ania · Post by **ania** » Mon 17 January 2005 11:08 am

joasia wrote:

There have been clergy who have participated with these groups, but this is a matter of lack of control on the part of the Metropolitan.

Do you mean his own self control, or control over his priests? My dad has attended services at SVS (not serving, but he sang in the choir during vigil and blessed the food for dinner in the presence of at leat 4 OCA priests) with the full knowledge & blessing of Met. Lavr. If dad hadn't had a blessing, he would not have gone. Met. Lavr has control over the clergy who love and respect him as their leader. It's those who don't who are out of control.

Katina · Post by **Katina** » Mon 17 January 2005 3:37 pm

ROCOR-V is in communion with none of the Greek jurisdictions although it maintains friendly relations with most of them. In Montreal, there are a significant number of Greeks who are part of the ROCOR-V community. There will only be intercommunion when the Greek Old Calendarists heal their differences and unite into a single Old Calendar Traditionalist group.

I believe that ROCOR-L is in communion with the Cyprian group and maintains good relations with the Kiousis group. Met. Pavlos is good friends with Met. Laurus and Bp. Gabriel.

Anastasios · Post by **Anastasios** » Mon 17 January 2005 5:19 pm

joasia wrote:
Generally, ROCOR is more friendly towards those Greek Old Calendarist groups who do not condemn the new calendarists and ecumenists , and are not quite as friendly with those groups who are "less moderate".

Maybe in your area.

ROCOR has no intention of supporting the new calendarist ecumenists. How can they? They follow the old calendar and ecumenism is out of the question. There have been clergy who have participated with these groups, but this is a matter of lack of control on the part of the Metropolitan. And it is a shame on the part of the clergy. MY priests would never accept a layman's participation of this kind. But, they know that everyone goes through spiritual trials. They try to be there for them, but they would NEVER suggest that it is the right thing to do.

Perhaps, that is the confusion. Some priests don't want to come right out with it. They tread lightly. For some, they will be lenient, for others, they will put their foot down. It is the burden of leading a flock. I have all the respect for that.

And let's not forget the rumours that develop due to the weakness of mankind. Don't believe everything you hear about ROCOR.

I think you missed the point because the poster did not specify what was meant by "condemn." The question is ROCOR's position vis a vis the various Greek Old Calendarist groups. ROCOR is certainly on more friendly terms with the Greek Old Calendarists who do not condemn the New Calendarists as "graceless" than with those who do condemn them as graceless. ROCOR of course is opposed to ecumenism in general and New Calendarism, as its 1971 Synodal statement and 1983 Anathema show, but does not declare New Calendarists as "graceless" leaving that to an ecumenical council (again, the 1971 statement).

Anastasios

Anastasios · Post by **Anastasios** » Mon 17 January 2005 5:20 pm

Katina wrote:
ROCOR-V is in communion with none of the Greek jurisdictions although it maintains friendly relations with most of them. In Montreal, there are a significant number of Greeks who are part of the ROCOR-V community. There will only be intercommunion when the Greek Old Calendarists heal their differences and unite into a single Old Calendar Traditionalist group.

I believe that ROCOR-L is in communion with the Cyprian group and maintains good relations with the Kiousis group. Met. Pavlos is good friends with Met. Laurus and Bp. Gabriel.

That is correct.

Anastasios

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Wed 19 January 2005 10:31 pm

These assertions may have been true a few years ago, but as ROCOR is moving closer to being assimilated into World Orthodoxy their attitude towards even the so-called "moderate" Greek Old Calendarists has become more condescending. One should read Vl. Alexander's recent epistle to his flock from Oct. 9, 2004, in which he addresses the factors that still divide the MP and ROCOR. One of these factors, and Vladyka's very revealing commentary, deals with the True Orthodox Christians of Greece:

3. The Eucharistic communion in which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia exists, formally, at any rate, with uncanonical groups which have separated for various reasons from other Local Orthodox Churches, some active on the canonical territories of Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek Churches. Recently these groups have tried to also expand their activity on our canonical territory and the territory of the Georgian Patriarch. [Alas, we have been guilty of creating schismatic groups and are in Eucharistic communion with schismatic churches. Bp. A.]
[Emphasis mine]

Met. Cyprian of Oropos and Fili, considered to be the most "moderate" of the Greek Old Calendarist primates voiced his concern to ROCOR over an apparent "distancing" of ROCOR from his own Synod in a March 2001 epistle:

(1)Since then, notwithstanding our sincere feelings of love and respect toward You, we have observed that You started to keep a certain "distance" from us. Then to our surprise, we had to deal with a certain unpleasant and sometimes unbrotherly position of some Archhierarchs of Your Holy Synod, which forced us with great patience, magnanimity and prayer to respond to some accusations and voluntarily and clearly offer You necessary explanations, as for example our letter No. 244 from 10.1.1997.

(2) Furthermore, some church actions of Your Holy Synod created justified bewilderment in us. The ecclesiastical basis of our Holy Synod, which is openly and firmly anti-ecumenist, never allowed us to have association with the official Orthodox jurisdictions because they actively participate in the ecumenical movement and belong to the World Council of Churches. Your Holy Synod, albeit carefully, all the same acts contrary without concealing this.

In a recent "Statement on the Rapproachment Between the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate," issued by the Secretariat of Met. Cyprian's Synod in Resistance, there is further evidence given of this distancing:

With regard to the issue of immediate and official cessation of
communion with the ROCA so quickly after the initiation of these
proceedings towards rapprochement, we have not deemed such ﬁnal
action to be the most efficacious solution, but have decided to continue
gradually distancing ourselves from this situation, keeping in
mind that, for several years now, we have, in effect, had almost no
communion with the ROCA. It is our intention to exercise benevolent
inﬂuence in a healthy direction over the various factions within the
ROCA.
[Emphasis mine]

From my own personal experience with pro-Sergianist clergy within ROCOR, none of them acknowledge the True Orthodox Christians of Greece as anything but schismatic and an embarassment. I was baptized a Greek Old Calendarist, by a priest who now refers to World Orthodoxy as "The Church". Communion with Met. Cyprian was nothing more than a stepping stone for the pro-Sergianists controlling ROCOR to gradually phase us into this present state of affairs, by adopting the Cyprianite ecclesiology that heretics have grace. Now that the pro-Sergianist bishops have brought ROCOR to the brink of apostacy, Met. Cyprian or any of the other Old Calendarists are no longer of any use to them.

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Thu 20 January 2005 1:05 am

Communion with Met. Cyprian was nothing more than a stepping stone for the pro-Sergianists controlling ROCOR to gradually phase us into this present state of affairs, by adopting the Cyprianite ecclesiology that heretics have grace.

It's worse than you think, Sean. ROCOR does not now, nor has she ever, called the new calendarists or ecumenists heretics. Unless you are aware of some document that I'm not where the synod of bishops officially condemned another local Church or bishop as heretical?

Oh, wait. That's good news. Nonetheless the battle rages on...

"Thus, with regret our whole Church has had to endure powerful disturbances hitherto unseen. As if from deep within the bosom of the body of the Church cracks began to appear, though they have not yet developed into deep fissures. We look on with fear as in places they are trying to transform these chinks into rifts which split apart not only the flock, but even the clergy."