PatrickM,
Something you might want to consider, though -- I met someone many years ago who told me he believed the Russian Empire fell because the common people stopped receiving Communion. Whether that's true or not I have no idea, but the more I thought about it the more I saw he had a valid premise underneath.
I have also heard that the lack of our faith is the reason for our demise. But, the weakness starts from the clergy and infects the rest of us. Without strong, faithful leaders, we all start to spiritually decline.
Our bishops are a spiritual expression of who we are. While they bear responsibility for their own personal sins and flaws, if we have weak bishops it's because we have, God forgive us, weak faith. It may seem facetious, and I'm not trying to make light of a serious situation, but if we want better bishops we should pray harder, give more alms.
I agree. But, how do we convince others to feel as determined as we are...they have their worldly concerns and will nod and then go rent a movie or something. The clerics of the churches have to make the message heard. They have to get the message across that this is a serious dilemma. But, then they say: well, what can you do? The people won't listen.
I know that there are priests that try. They say their sermons, they talk to people one-on-one...but the bishops, Metropolitans and Patriarchs are not showing much effort.
I also heard that we have a right to question the hierarchal leaders. We are sheep for Christ, not sheep for hierarchal whims. We SHOULD question why the calendar was changed in the church. We SHOULD question why some bishops are communing with ecumenists.
But, have you noticed that we are not given a full explanation? We are told to trust them. They are sinners like us. They make wrong choices. So we SHOULD question them. And they SHOULD answer.
The fact that Vladika Vitaly left or was taken, is case in point. How can this kind of rubbish happen?? One day, he is the respected hierarch of a church, the next day, he is considered incompetent.
So was he incompentent while he was still the hierarch of ROCOR, a week before?
God is alot more clear about the way He works in our lives...but, this disaster is purely the doings of mankind. That is why I blame the hierarchs.
I came to Orthodoxy because I was seeking the truth. The whole truth and nothing but. The Orthodox theology and doxology was the affirmation. Now I'm surrounded by all this mess and I think that it is a useless mess. It should never have happened, considering the fact that we have full knowledge of the history of the church AND SHOULD KNOW BETTER.
All we are doing is creating a new kind of ecclestiastical disaster. Mankind will never learn from the mistakes of the past. They just do it again and again.
And if she expresses herself in a way that's... less than perfectly Orthodox
I am being completely Orthodox. Don't doubt my devotion to the faith. I'm not some kind of haphazard convert, that thought it might be nice to be Orthodox. I am fully devoted to it.
I suspect many in this forum have made that transition from the world to Orthodoxy. Some are shocked to have come to the perfection of Christ only to find His Body filled with all to imperfect humans. Some have an idealized concept of how things should be. It can be painful to try and reconcile an ideal with reality. I've known a number of people who've left the Church because they couldn't make that transition
I am not shocked with the sins of mankind; I have plenty of my own. I am disappointed with their leadership. For the love of truth, doesn't everybody want a positive, honest leadership with their government? That's all I'm asking for with the hierarchy. People seem to care more about how the heads of states are running things. That to me, is worldly.
Justin,
I'm not sure what you are looking for? Even in the 4th century, which is considered some kind of "Golden Age" for the Church, people like St. Gregory the Theologian and St. John Chrysostom were decrying how unspiritual and poorly off the priests and bishops were. I don't think we should expect anything better. Or perhaps a better way of looking at it is, collectively we shouldn't expect better,
I think that is a cop-out. And I guess that's why we are in this state now. Because we say: well, it wasn't any better back then.
I'm living now. And I want it to be better than back then, don't you?
but when thinking/dealing with each individual bishop we should always always always give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are a pious, wonderful bishop. They are all, after all, bishops, whether they are personally worthy of that title or not.
I've given them the benefit of the doubt. That's what has brought me to this conclusion. Do you think that we would be in the same spiritual state if all the bishops were one of the saints? St. Nicholas, St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great and such? The bishops HAVE to answer for their part. No more half excuses. No more colorful speeches of distraction. Just be honest. The laity are the children of the church. Let's be united with honesty.
Jesus said, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example." (Matt. 23:2-3)
Does that include ecumenism? Does that include spliting churches?
"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." (Matt. 23:4)
We have become burdened by them. We suffer the consequences of their decisions.
Don't get me wrong. I respect the position of bishops and such, but the ones we have are a poor example to follow.
gphadraig,
The bishop together with his flock is the church, in its fullness. That is what we are told, and therefore some responsibility lays upon us. And if the bishops tread strange paths or seem to lack zeal, is it that we too wear them down and pressure them. Oh Vladyka, if I have to wear a head-covering forget it, or the services are too long, the icons too severe etc., etc. Humility, obedience and self-knowledge appear to be replaced by establishing one's own status, rights and listening to the god within.
It seems like a circle of a lack of faith. But, the bishops are the appointed ones. Unfortunately, they are not saints. There are so many stories of saints that have talked to worldly-minded people and those people came out of the cell with a spiritual peace. I don't feel that with any bishops of this time.
So I expect so much. So what? Hasn't anybody bought a car or something and expected alot out of it? And I'm too critical because I expect a strong Orthodox leadership?
Sometimes I wonder whether it is that we prefer to scapegoat others because in so doing we escape gazing deep within ourselves
I don't have a problem gazing within myself. I do it very often, especially when I write on the cafe.
Did not the saintly Seraphim of Sarov not weep for his enumerable sins?
I REALLY wish St. Seraphim was alive today. We have no spiritual guidance anymore. No saint to go to and ask advice.
Anastasios,
Siga.
