Relics

[George Australia]

woops!

[George Australia]

In my humble opinion, if Orthodox churches have any serious missionary aspirations in North America, they must conduct at least part of their services in English. If Orthodox churches do not have any missionary aspirations in North America, why don't they

My experience of Orthodox missionary aspirations is that it is far different from Roman Catholic or Protestant missionary activity. From what I have seen in India, Korea and Indonesia, the Orthodox simply set up a Church and start conducting Services. In India and Indonesia, both Churches I saw worshipped in Koine, and both had an astounding number of converts. I understand that the same has happened in Kenya and Ghana (although I haven't visited them first hand).
Perhaps we in the West have come to be a bit too demanding of our 'rights'. There is a nun here in Australia who converted to Orthodoxy and who's only Greek words are "Doxa to Theo" ("Glory to God!"). If people don't want Orthodoxy, they don't have to have it- and don't tell me it's a language problem, because there are plenty of English speaking Americans chanting "Om Mani Padme Hum" and "Allah hu akbar"- and who take the trouble to study these religions and worship in other languages.

For the non-Orthodox I know, standing through a 2 and half hour vigil would be challenging enough without not understanding a single word.

Only two and a half hours? That's how long Orthros takes before the liturgy each Sunday in our little monastery Church.
Take a book which translates the Services- I do.
Alternatively, people in North America can try the excuse on Judgement Day that, unlike the converts in India, Korea, Indonesia, Kenya and Ghana, they decided not to become Orthodox Christians, (even though they recognised it as the truth) because their local Orthodox Church worshipped in an archaic language and it was too much trouble for them to hold a book during Services....I wish them luck with that argument! Especially when those who chant 'Om Mani Padme Hum' and took the trouble to study Buddhism because they never heard of Orthodoxy will also be there- Who do you think will be shown more mercy?:lol:

As an aside- can I suggest that this latest development of the discussion would be more appropriately discussed in the "Praxis" section of the Forum, since we have gone way off the topic of 'Relics' here.

[Joshua F]

Off topic or not, it's an interesting tangent worth pursuing - perhaps a mod can split these posts off.

A lot of people returning to St. Vladimir's in Edmonton (a city with a huge Ukrainian and Russian population) went to Church with their parents, but not understanding anything, left when they reached maturity. Now, it's impossible to say that if the services had been in English they never would have left, but what I hear from "re-verts" who come back for Pascha and then keep coming back is that the English services opened up a whole world of meaning and hearing the services in English was a revelation - "oh! that's what they were saying all these years!"

I applaud you for attending monastery services, but the fact is, almost nobody even attends church anymore in this country because they don't think Orthodoxy has anything to offer - but the services have the whole theology of the Church contained in them, the spiritual struggles and triumphs of the saints, the Orthodox way of life, and exposing people to this in a language they understand can be very powerful.

India and Africa have not yet lost a sense of the potency and imminence of the spiritual world, but North America, with its materialistic aporia, leaves people in a state of confusion and distress without any sense that turning to religion can provide answers... if we require people to learn a language before they can understand Orthodoxy, only a few will come to faith - those that can read and absorb Orthodoxy and the teachings of the fathers on their own (and consequently don't need to learn the language) or those who have a gift for languages (I struggle with envy here).

I decline to speculate on what Christ will say about this at the Dread Judgement, but seeing how 99% of Edmonton's one-third Slavic population has fallen away from Orthodoxy and just doesn't understand the services they do attend, I have a hard time thinking that understanding the services is not important to people.

You suggest that people could follow the services in a book. This is possible for the parts that don't change, but what would you suggest for the canons, the stichoi, the 60% of the matins service that changes every day? Should anyone thinking about coming back to Church be required to have a complete collection of service books in order to understand what is being said? Obviously ridiculous to expect that, but the fact remains that a great deal of the services is inaccessible unless you understand the language.

The services are an opportunity to educate and instruct, and a lost opportunity if the people that most need education and instruction cannot understand most of them.

[George Australia]

I applaud you for attending monastery services,

Why? I live in a remote mountain town and it is simply the nearest Orthodox Church (50 min drive). The next nearest Church is 2 hours drive away- so it's merely a matter of convenience- no need for applause.

Should anyone thinking about coming back to Church be required to have a complete collection of service books in order to understand what is being said? Obviously ridiculous to expect that, but the fact remains that a great deal of the services is inaccessible unless you understand the language.

Why is it so ridiculous that people should invest in an horologion, festal menaion, pentacostarion and paracletiki etc or at least an abridged synopsis? I think it is more ridiculous that people should invest money in materielistic, consumer rubbish rather than in something which would profit their immortal souls. It is consumerism which is ridiculous. What could be more foolish than to pay the devil to carry you off to hell?

I have a hard time thinking that understanding the services is not important to people.

Have I suggested that you should consider this? I never said understanding the Services is not important did I? In fact, I'm saying the opposite. I am saying it is so very important that people should make the effort to understand the Services. As I said before, it is enough that we are spoon-fed the Body and Blood of Christ without having to be spoon-fed everything else. Further, I said it is so important to get it right that we should make the effort to understand what the words of the original hymns and readings are, since the translations are not reliable and do not agree with each other on the meaning.
At what point do we take some responsibility ourselves to understand the Services?
According to Holy Tradition, 70 translators translated the Septuagint from the Hebrew and their translations miraculously fully agreed with each other. I have presented you with only three english translations of the very short Nativity Kontakion which I googled at random, and none of them fully agree. It is so important that we understand the Services that we should be absolutely sure that we get our translation right- something we haven't achieved yet.

It is unfair to blame the Church for being slow to translate into english and comparing it to the baptism of Russia. Orthodoxy came to Russia by invitation, because the Russian envoys "knew not whether they were in Heaven or on Earth" when they saw the Services in Agia Sophia- and they did not understand the language. Sts. Kyril and Methodius went to a country which had asked for Orthodoxy. North America has not asked for Orthodoxy.

[Joshua F]

Why is it so ridiculous that people should invest in an horologion, festal menaion, pentacostarion and paracletiki etc or at least an abridged synopsis? I think it is more ridiculous that people should invest money in materielistic, consumer rubbish rather than in something which would profit their immortal souls. It is consumerism which is ridiculous. What could be more foolish than to pay the devil to carry you off to hell?

Quite a few of the people in our church do have these books. However, they all attended regularly for some time before investing in the menaion etc. What I am suggesting is that people who walk into church for the first time in 40 years can and do benefit from understanding the words. It is unrealistic /ridiculous to expect such people to spend thousands of dollars or hundreds before they are even full members of the Church, so what I am suggesting is that not having services in an intelligible language means that many of these people will not hear the Word of God, let alone keep it. Many people come to Church for reasons other than Christ, but the services touch their hearts in a way that changes them - I don't doubt for a second that this can happen even when the services are in a foreign language, but at the same time, to return to a point already made, the Apostles did speak to the multitudes in their own tongues.

On the translations point - should Russia have waited for Paisius Velichkovsky to correct translations before doing anything in Slavonic? I submit that ten mediocre translations are better for the purposes of salvation than a perfect but completely incomprehensible original. Also, the menaion has been completely translated into English, so you can add that to the other books you suggested one take to the services.

[George Australia]

I submit that ten mediocre translations are better for the purposes of salvation than a perfect but completely incomprehensible original.

In principle I would agree, but history has shown that the praxis is different. Call me over-cautious if you will, but wasn't the most tragic split between the Eastern and Western Church due in part to one eensy-weensy latin word- 'filioque'. It may in fact be vital to the salvation of souls that we get our meaning conveyed correctly.

[TomS]

Call me over-cautious if you will, but wasn't the most tragic split between the Eastern and Western Church due in part to one eensy-weensy latin word- 'filioque'. It may in fact be vital to the salvation of souls that we get our meaning conveyed correctly.

The 'filioque' was an addition, not an error in translation.