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gphadraig
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Post by gphadraig »

First, the calendar change was brought about by an anti-canonical act and in an anti-Orthodox manner. (Archimandrite Gabriel of the Sacred Monastery of Dionysiou, 1997, and others).

Others, from within the State Church of Greece or new calendar church if that makes for clarity, have advocated for a return to the Church calendar, including Archbishop Dorotheos of Athens, Archbishop Chrysostomos 11 of Athens, and Metropolitan Augoustinos (Kantiotis) of Florina (the eldest of the bishops). Archbishop Dorotheos said of the those adhering to the Church calendar, "The Old Calendar Movement is neither a heresy nor a schism, and those who follow it are neither heretics nor schismatics, but are Orthodox Christians". But for his removal by the colonels following their coup d'etat in 1967, Archbishop Chrysostomos had pledged to restore the traditional Church calendar to the Church of Greece.

I for one find the ready application of labels such as schismatic to one group or another like much else posted subjective and judgemental. Now if I am asked do I prefer this or that then a subjective statement should pose no problem, but for any of us to arbitarily decide who is and who is not 'in schism' appears to be 'spiritually dangerous'.

Despite many stays in Greece and much study of the matter I am more perplexed by the issues than before starting to try and make sense of this tradegy within Orthodoxy.

As I have written elsewhere there appear to be two outspoken minorities among us, whom we might refer to as:

The Uncanonical canonicals and the canonical Uncanonicals.

God will in His good time seperate the wheat from the tares, it is not for us to pre-judge that surely?

1937 Miraculous Cross
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GOC schismatics?

Post by 1937 Miraculous Cross »

Dear Apologist,

Perhaps you don't know, but there are a couple of Greek Old Calendar synods that go by the "GOC" name. Are the Matthewites schismatics? Well, they were the only ones who stayed true to the 3 Pan Orthodox anathemas against the Papal pashcalion and menaion, as well as the 9 or 10 other local Church pronouncements against this. Who then were the schismatics? The answer: the State Church of Greece.

The Matthewites sought communion with a sister Church, i.e., the ROCOR, in 1971 believing their confession was identical (pro-Orthodox Calendar, anti-ecumenism, anti-Freemasonry, etc). This communion was suspended by the GOC(Matthewites) in 1976 because of the ecumenical concelebrations of a ROCOR bishop. The GOC sent a letter to ROCOR asking ROCOR to clarify their position on ecumenism. ( They're still waiting btw, as no reply has been returned.)

This has been pretty much the same situation with the other GOC's (Kiousis synod and so on...excepting the Cyprianite synod). Over the years the ecumenical activities of the ROCOR became such that the various Old Calendar GOC's of Greece would pull back. I don't believe any of these events were formal declarations by these GOC synods against ROCOR, but more because of the lack of clarity on ROCOR's part. (someone can correct me if I'm wrong.) However, I sadly admit, that ROCOR's (L) position is becoming very clear at this time = pro-MP.

I hope this adds some clarity to your question.

in Christ,
Nectarios Manzanero
Austin, TX

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George Australia
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Re: GOC schismatics?

Post by George Australia »

1937 Miraculous Cross wrote:

Who then were the schismatics? The answer: the State Church of Greece.

Dear MC,
I think gphadraig's advice is very wise:

gphadraig wrote:

God will in His good time seperate the wheat from the tares, it is not for us to pre-judge that surely?

We've had an entire thread on this forum about "Juristiction Bashing".
This aside, remind me again....how many Bishops in the State Church of Greece were consecrated by only one Bishop contrary to the Holy Canons?

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Apologist,

Can I ask a question? Does ROCOR, recognize a "Church" of Greek Schismatics called ΓΟΧ or GOC (Genuine Orthodox Christians), also known as "Matthewites"??? Does it recognize the Archidiocese of Greece (Archibishop Christodoulos), that has the New Calendar, and is recognized by MT. ATHOS? Does it recognize the rest of the canonical Churches (Serbian Patriarchate, Ecumenical P., Russian P., Antiochian P etc)? What did St. John Maximovich say???

Perhaps you could contact one (or some) of the ROCA bishops and ask them?

1937 Miraculous Cross
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Post by 1937 Miraculous Cross »

Dear George Australia,

Your quote:

We've had an entire thread on this forum about "Juristiction Bashing".
This aside, remind me again....how many Bishops in the State Church of Greece were consecrated by only one Bishop contrary to the Holy Canons?

If my comment about the State Church of Greece being the cause of a schism by adopting the New Calendar contrary to Holy Tradition is "jurisdiction bashing"...well, sorry. However, what else do you call it? The Old Calendar bishops confirmed this as schism in 1935. I didn't make it up. Also, in 1923, Archimandrite Chrysostom Papadopoulos (the future Archbishop of the State Church) himself wrote to the Committee of the Dept. of Religion in Greece: "No Orthodox autocephalous Church can separate itself from the rest and accept the New Calendar without becoming schismatic in the eyes of the others." So, I'm not intending to be bashing anyone...just stating what has already been stated many years ago.

(It was Apologist who started this thread with a reference to the GOC "Matthewites" as being "schismatics." I'm merely clarifying and responding to his post.)

BTW, I'm not intending to start another Matthewite theme here, but if you want to discuss single handed consecrations and how often they've occurred and why, I'd be happy to dialogue with you about this under a different thread elsewhere.

Nectarios Manzanero

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George Australia
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Post by George Australia »

Dear in Christ, Nectarios,
I apologise if I sounded terse. Being what you would call a 'Cyprianite', I know that it would be pointless entering into a discussion about who is or isn't schismatic with a 'Matthewite'. Can we just agree to disagree? I see no schism, and you do- let's just leave it at that. :)

There is a problem in my opinion in calling a particular group schismatic. Schism is a sin which even martyrdom cannot erase. To accuse someone of schism is to accuse them of a very serious sin. Even if my bishop made such an accusation against someone, I would still hesitate to accept it- Orthodox bishops are not infallible, as we see by the treatement of the holy Metropolitan of Pentapolis whose name you bear.

"Schism" is an accusation bandied about too freely, and often for political motives.

"As long as it depends on Monothelitism, then Miaphysitism is nothing but a variant of Monophysitism."

gphadraig
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Post by gphadraig »

"Schism is an accusation bandied about too freely...."

Amen, amen, amen.

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