Relics

[TomS]

..in a little while, we will celebrate the Nativity- and we will chant:

"Thy Nativity, O Christ our God
Has shown to the world the Light of Knowledge
For there by, those who worshipped the stars
were taught by a star to adore Thee, the Sun of Righteousness
and to know Thee, the Orient from on High,
O Lord, Glory to Thee."
and

"...and we who walked in darkness and shadows
have found the Truth,
for the Lord is born of a Virgin!"

Thanks for the response George.

What is being chanted is nice. Of course, I would have never known what was being chanted if you had not told me since I go to a GOA Church and all the chanting is in Greek

Really bugs me that 99% of the teachings of the Church I can't understand!

[Грешник]

Tom ::

Here is an interesting bt of info as to what is wrong with what you are experiencing.

Synod of Constantinople (1872) and Condemnation of Phyletism

It was the Bulgarian Schism, however, which precipitated for the part of the Church as to the precise role of nationalism or ethnicity (then known as phyletism) in the life of the Church. The claim of the Bulgarians that on the basis of their ethnicity they were entitled to be an autocephalous church despite the fact that at that time it did not comprise a national state (still being part of the Ottoman Empire), unlike the newly independent Balkan states, provoked the Ecumenical Patriarchate to convene a Synod at Constantinople in 1872 which was attended by the heads or representatives of all the autocephalous churches of Orthodoxy. Presided over by Patriarch Anthimus VI of Constantinople, the Synod condemned as heresy the acceptance of phyletism or ethnicity as being the decisive factor in church organization.

Conforming to that decision is a condition for Orthodox Christian unity in today's world, and remains the basic principle regarding church unity — that is, that the organization of the Church along ethnic lines in the same geographical area is a heresy (Meyendorff Vision 67 & 69). The ethnic divisions of Orthodoxy existing in America today, are thus clearly inconsistent with the decision of the 1872 Synod of Constantinople.

[George Australia]

What is being chanted is nice. Of course, I would have never known what was being chanted if you had not told me since I go to a GOA Church and all the chanting is in Greek

TomS,
How can someone who uses the internet complain about this? There are plenty of free translations available of the Festal Menaion, Triodion, Pentecostarion etc even if you can't afford the books. For example, you will find an abridged translation of the Nativity Matins at: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/25decMat.htm
Spend some time on the GOA website, it has some very useful material including translations of the hymns, prayers etc.
Even I had to study to understand the Church's greek hymns, and I'm greek! It is enough that we are spoon-fed the Body and Blood of Christ without having to be spoon-fed everything else as well! We must make some effort- the Word may be planted in us, but we must cultivate it, and this means spending time studying, praying, reading and talking with our Community of Believers- the Church, and especially those who are experienced and tested. I am speaking of course of a well experienced Spiritual Father who is a living link to the Ancient, Apostolic, Christianity and the Mind of the Church.
Whatever reason we recieve Orthodox Christian Baptism and Chrisimation, whether voluntarily for Christ's sake, or because of our parents and God-Parent when we are infants, or whether we did so to please others such as for example, in order to marry an Orthodox Spouse, the fact remains that our baptism is indelible and un-repeatable, and not only imparts Grace, but also carries a grave responsibility to cultivate what was planted in us at baptism. If we are baptised as infants, this responsibility at first lies with our parents and Sponsor until we mature, but ultimately it is ours.
You, Tom, freely and voluntarily chose to take on this responsibility from the outset since you converted as an adult.
As we chant after Communion, you, Tom "...have seen the true Light...have received the Heavenly Spirit...have found the true Faith by worshipping the co-essential Trinity..." You are therefore in the exact position described in the Epistle to the Hebrews as pointed out by Apologist:
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

I would speak and decide very carefully if I were you, lest I crucify Christ again and subject Him to open and public shame. Christ Himself said that He will deny those who deny Him, and confess those who confess Him.

Wishing you a happy, holy and blessed Nativity.
George

[Schultz]

We must make some effort- the Word may be planted in us, but we must cultivate it, and this means spending time studying, praying, reading and talking with our Community of Believers- the Church, and especially those who are experienced and tested.

But doesn't this work both ways? Should not the GOA make some effort to cultivate the Word in an English speaking community, which surrounds the church Tom goes to?

Chanting the more "popular" hymns and antiphons in the liturgical language, be it Greek or Slavonic, is one thing. I love it when my own Ruthenian Catholic church sings the Trisagion Hymn in Slavonic or, as of late, we sing "O Kto, kto". Things such as the trisagion are sung every Sunday and because of the repetition, people more easily know what is being chanted, even if it is in a foreign language.

But to have the theology of the Church, most notably the changeable parts like the kondaks and the tropars, regularly chanted in a language foreign to the majority of the hearers does not make sense to me. It would be akin to St. Paul preaching to the Macedonians in Hebrew!

[George Australia]

But doesn't this work both ways? Should not the GOA make some effort to cultivate the Word in an English speaking community, which surrounds the church Tom goes to? ...<snip>...But to have the theology of the Church, most notably the changeable parts like the kondaks and the tropars, regularly chanted in a language foreign to the majority of the hearers does not make sense to me. It would be akin to St. Paul preaching to the Macedonians in Hebrew!

Dear in Christ, Schultz,
Believe me, I do understand the frustration, however, as you said yourself, the liturgical hymns, canons, kontakia, troparia etc, like the Icons, convey the theology of the Church. Translating into another language in a way which can be chanted is well nigh impossible without changing some words (and therefore not conveying the precise meaning). Even when Orthodoxy reached Russia, some words were not translated because there was no existing equivalent in Slavic- for example, "Prosfora" is a greek word which found it's way into Russia. Similarly, "Theotokos" is rarely translated into english chant, because it means more than "Mother of God" and "God-Birther" doesn't fit the melody as it has three syllables instead of four.
In order to illustrate this, If I wish to convey the precise meaning of the Church's Nativity Kontakion, which of the following (if any) translations should I use?

TRANSLATION 1
Today the Virgin gives birth to him who is above all being,
and the earth offers a cave to him whom no one can approach.
Angels with shepherds give glory,
and magi journey with a star,
for to us there has been born
a little Child, God before the ages.
http://jbburnett.com/resources/romanos_nativity.pdf

TRANSLATION 2
Today the virgin giveth birth to Him Who is above all being.
And the earth offereth a cave to Him Whom no man can approach.
Angels with shepherds give glory,
and magi journey with a star.
For our sake is born, a Young Child - the Preëternal God!
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/pray ... ismas.html

TRANSLATION 3
On this day the Virgin cometh to a cave
to give birth to God the Word ineffable,
Who was before all the ages.
Dance for joy, O earth, on hearing the gladsome tidings;
with the Angels and the shepherds now glorify Him
Who is willing to be gazed on as a young Child
Who before the ages is God.
http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/saints. ... tentid=350

Looking at these three translations, does the original kontakion tell us that Christ was born 'to us', or born 'for our sake', or that He was born because it was His will to be 'gazed on'?
It's the same problem we have with translations of Scripture. If one seriously wants to study Scripture, one needs to learn Hebrew and Koine, as well as study the Fathers' interpretations. Otherwise, all we can do is depend on the Fathers' exegesis- as for example, Blessed Theophylact's explanation of the Gospel (I believe the translation into english of his explanation of the Gospel of St. John will be completed in 2005, thus completing the four Gospels).

Secondly, dont forget that russians and greeks are speaking neither modern russian nor modern greek in Church. They are speaking slavonic and koine respectively. Being able to speak modern russian or greek doesn't mean that you will understand the Church Services. Worshipping in Koine and Slavonic is like an english speaker worshipping in medieval-english. When I was in school, I had to study "The Canterbury Tales" which required me to translate Chaucer's English into modern english. Greek and russian Orthodox worshippers have to do a similar thing in order to understand what is being said in the Services. So you see, even greeks and russians have to make 'some effort.' So why should english speakers be spared this ascesis?:)

George

[icxn]

Here's yet another translation, which I happen to like

On this day the Virgin gives
birth to the Super-essential.
To the Unapproachable,
earth is providing the grotto.
Angels sing and with the shepherds offer up glory.
Following a star the Magi are still proceeding.
He was born for our salvation, a newborn Child, the pre-eternal God.

Καλά Χριστούγεννα
icxn

[Joshua F]

Secondly, dont forget that russians and greeks are speaking neither modern russian nor modern greek in Church. They are speaking slavonic and koine respectively. Being able to speak modern russian or greek doesn't mean that you will understand the Church Services. Worshipping in Koine and Slavonic is like an english speaker worshipping in medieval-english. When I was in school, I had to study "The Canterbury Tales" which required me to translate Chaucer's English into modern english. Greek and russian Orthodox worshippers have to do a similar thing in order to understand what is being said in the Services. So you see, even greeks and russians have to make 'some effort.' So why should english speakers be spared this ascesis?:)

Yes, but you are speaking of nations where Orthodoxy has permeated even the modern culture and language, and there is a less pressing need for explicit theological instruction in the services (though still a need)

English speaking converts usually know less than cradle Orthodox Greeks or Russians. Furthermore, the language barrier is often a huge impediment to conversion. Sts. Kyrill and Methodius translated scripture into Slavonic because not because it was an old language understood by a few and would require effort for slavic peoples to understand, but because it was the dominant language understood by the masses.

In my humble opinion, if Orthodox churches have any serious missionary aspirations in North America, they must conduct at least part of their services in English. If Orthodox churches do not have any missionary aspirations in North America, why don't they

For the non-Orthodox I know, standing through a 2 and half hour vigil would be challenging enough without not understanding a single word. In our Cathedral, vigils are in English, and normally well-attended.