MP leads Dali Lama behind Iconostsis!

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尼古拉前执事
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MP leads Dali Lama behind Iconostsis!

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Dispatch Agency France Presses (wwwafp.COM).

ELISTA (Russia), Nov. 30 (AFP) - the Russian Patriarch invites the
Dalai Lama to an interview.

The patriarch of Moscow and all Russia Alexis II invited Tuesday the
Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of the Buddhists Tibetans who is
visiting Kalmykia (southern Russia), to an meeting, if he went to
Moscow, according to the message conveyed by the bishop of Elista
and Kalmykia.

"I would like to relay to you to Patriarch Alexis II's most cordial
words. Your visit always brings peace to our earth and understanding
between confessions. His Holiness Patriarch Alexis II would like to
see you if you go to Moscow ", said the local orthodox bishop, Vl.
Zossima, while meeting the Dalai Lama in the church of the icon of
the Virgin of Kazan, an orthodox cathedral in Kalmykia.

"All the religions have the same objective, which is to make a
better world. I am not Christian but (...) I come to this church as
a sign of a very deep respect ", replied the Dalai Lama in Tibetan.

A score of believing orthodox and boudhhists followed the Dalai Lama
inside the church, where the orthodox bishop presented the Buddhist
spiritual leader an Easter egg out of decorated porcelain.

As a sign of extreme respect, the Dalai Lama was even led behind the
iconostase of the orthodox church.

A meeting between the Dalai Lama and the orthodox patriarch should
not however take place in the immediate future, as the Buddhist
spiritual leader is returning again Wednesday to India where he
lives in exile.

Out of respect to Peking, the Russian authorities have made the
commitment to allow only one pastoral visit in Kalmykia, a small
Russian republic with Buddhist majority by the Caspian Sea.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

"All the religions have the same objective, which is to make a
better world. I am not Christian but (...) I come to this church as
a sign of a very deep respect ", replied the Dalai Lama in Tibetan.

This is what most ecumenists (and many people) believe today; its just that the MP also thinks religion has the added objective of making a better state.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Orthodox6,

It is just my general view that Ecumenism is exactly summed-up as a reconciliation of ones "Orthodoxy" with the world. The motives vary depending on the position of the ecumenist/modernist, but it is all for the same purpose.

Now the "Orthodox" who still believed in venerating icons but who stayed with the majority, the Iconoclasts, they may have been called Orthodox in their day, but not in ours.

We all know what we are by who we commemorate in the Liturgy each Sunday when we declare the same faith as our bishop. And he does the same by the bishops he commemorates. When it comes to communion, (Orthodox) Christians are not individuals. And one certainly does not need to look far to see a whole long list of intolerable heresies and schismatic acts within virtually every ecumenist (world Orthodox) synod. There has never been a time when so many have been lost to so many innovations. Perhaps in time with the Grace of God you will see it too.

John Haluska
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Post by John Haluska »

Father Nikolai forwarded an article mentioning a specific act.

To date, all that has been written refers to a phrase/comment made by an individual with respect to the heresy of Ecumenism.

A while back, an individual wrote a comment, the wording escapes me, which in essence stated, “…Ecumenism is here, but where are the protestors and what can be done about it…?”

If that is inaccurate, I apologize, but the gist of his comment is ‘there’, and I thank him. He was most correct.

Just recently, an individual stated what is the exact definition of what one could use to describe the malaise of Ecumenical Orthodoxy, or “world orthodoxy” as it is now being touted. It is:

“ "Orthodoxy" with the world. “

How true.

Yes, Ecumenism is indeed here to stay...

...along with the “new” Ecumenism of “world orthodoxy”.

Can it be fought? Of course! Can it be eliminated? That depends on whether people “want” it eliminated. It also depends on individuals who see Ecumenism for “what” it is, and try their best to inform people and are vociferously opposed to it.

There is an OUTSTANDING article, written by an OCA priest, which goes into minute detail about Ecumenism. Everyone “should” read it….but will not.

The subject "action" does more to fuel the heresy of Ecumenism, than the blasphemous act of “allowing”, ostensibly out of “...a sign of extreme respect…” a Buddhist pagan to enter the Altar area of an Orthodox Church.

It is most assured that there are individuals, who may even be Orthodox, who are now saying, either to themselves or to others of their Orthodox friends, “Here’s another “fundamentalist” kook going off on his “super-Orthodox” kick again.

The ones who should be aghast at this action are the hierarchs, the clergy and the monastics.

Whether they are indeed aghast at this is their decision.

It usually ends up being simple lay folk (the “infantry” if you will, specifically the “points”) who take up the cause and say aught against these “actions”.

Some will say, “So what! After all, the Buddhist pagan did not serve a liturgy, did he?”

Not yet.

The plain and simple fact of this isolated (I hope, but doubt) matter is that “it” was accomplished.

And nothing has been said about it.

To date, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is in the late final phase of consummating its “union” with Moscow. This action, by an MP bishop, should raise a few hackles.

Did it?

Was this “act” of a Moscow hierarch allowing a pagan Buddhist to enter the Altar not a classic case of Ecumenism?

Moscow staunchly maintains that it is NOT involved in Ecumenism.

It also states that its involvement in Ecumenism and the WCC is “just” from an informative aspect as one “proselytizes” to the Protestant, Latin, Shaman, Pagan, Buddhist, and other heterodox “groups”.

One wonders if any of the martyrs would have taken their tormentors into the Altar areas of their respective Churches.

I wonder if Saint and New Martyr Metropolitan Joseph of Petrograd took the people who tormented him into the Altar of his Cathedral, a “...a sign of extreme respect…”!

That is highly unlikely
.

Back to the article…and why would this “act” seemingly be of no consequence to the, say, average Orthodox individual?

Could it be that they did not see it? That is understandable as if one is not aware of an occurrence, then one cannot be “held accountable”.

Could it be that they saw it and just don’t want to “say anything” for fear of being ostracized by their clergy or hierarchs? That is also understandable (not really) and unfortunately probably the case in some circles.

Could it be that some saw it and state what was stated above, “So what!”

The fact is, and getting back to the comment made by the individual regarding Ecumenism, it makes no difference.

Ecumenism, by his very words and the actions, or lack thereof, of Orthodox Christians who would/should be incensed at this act, will say nothing.

“By silence is God betrayed”.

Ecumenism is here to stay.

A “search” for “Buddhist statues on an altar” produced some very interesting ‘finds’. One was:

Evidently, as was known but not specifically identified, was the fact that in 1986 in Assisi a statue of Buddha was placed on an “altar” where the Latin pope said some prayers…along with Shamans, Aborigines and a few assorted other “heterodox” representatives.

Is “that” not Ecumenism at its “finest/worst”?

What was said about that “act” and a subsequent one in 2002?

Nothing.

Sure there was a few outcries amongst the “super-Orthodox”, “fundamentalists”, but others? None, sadly to say said aught against this “act”.

In other words, the “attention span” phenomenon took over and "it" faded away.

At what point in time does one say,

“This is enough!”

Is it when the “leaders” of “world orthodoxy” (the latest Ecumenical buzz-word) are making statements of concession to the Latins, or is it when an MP bishop goes to Cuba and praises a Communist ruthless dictator and then has the gall to say that the church is in memory of the comrades who built it?

“If” the builders were indeed Orthodox, they were slaves; if they were not Orthodox, which they probably weren’t, they were plain old godless Communists.

I know of an Orthodox Church, in America, which was actually built on the blood of its Orthodox parishioners.

As they were building the foundation, they were being pelted with rocks thrown by “Christians”.

Their blood INDEED was sown as the foundation of that Church.

Consider:

Isn’t the heresy of Ecumenism supposed to be one of the three “sticking points” with respect to the “union” between the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and Moscow?

Also:

From the article itself, it was stated…

“...As a sign of extreme respect…”!

Was this “act” just an “in the spirit” action?

Note:

ONLY BAPTIZED ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS are allowed in the Altar area.

And, they are allowed to enter ONLY if there is a SPECIFIC REASON for them to be there.

Heterodox, let alone, pagans are not even allowed in the Cliros!

But here we have a pagan Buddhist allowed to enter the Altar!

It appears that the heresy of Ecumenism is very much alive and well in Russia.

In Canada, a few years ago, a number of NON ORTHODOX policemen, PLUS A NON ORTHODOX FEMALE were actually taken in to the Altar of an Orthodox Cathedral in Canada.

A recent phrase comes to mind. It is:

“…forces that hinder rapprochement...”

So what!

These “forces”, I believe, are those individuals, be they hierarchs, clergy, monastics of laymen belonging to the Russian orthodox Church Outside of Russia, who are “questioning” the “union” with the MP.

Questioning from the standpoint that there are many "questionable" practices and "acts" perpetrated by the MP, which go "unnoticed". The "questioning" is NOT done in a disrespectful mode!Not at all.

Yet, these individuals are "labeled" as “…forces that hinder rapprochement...”...by their own people.

In other words, the "act" has been completed, and their voices are most definitely NOT needed nor will they be "heard". The bishops always have had the "final word". So be it.

How will the heresy of Ecumenism be dealt with?

One may say, “So what does that have to do with an Orthodox bishop taking a Buddhist pagan into the Altar area?”

Ecumenism and its allowance of Ecumenical actions with deference to...

“...a sign of extreme respect…”...

...is what “it” has to do with it.

The following are statements which show, in managerial verbiage, how this “act” and past others, and future others have been and will be “handled”.

“…And also that the ROC to this day participates in the ecumenical movement and is in the World Council of Churches.”

“The documents already adopted by us in the process of discussions can act against these arguments.”

And one wonders,

“How can the heresy of Ecumenism be dealt with?”

Indeed.

These “trial balloons” that the MP uses are accomplishing their sinister goal.

They are succinctly measuring the “reaction” of individuals with respect to the “and how far can we go with this Ecumenical nonsense before something is said?

For one minute…does anyone actually expect Moscow to 100% wash their hands of the filth of Ecumenism?

After all, the heresy of Ecumenism was anathematized by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia…the VERY people that the MP needs to stay afloat.

These “…forces…” mentioned above, are absolutely NOTHING more or less than plain old (and young) sheep, laity who are AGAINST these Ecumenist incidents!

They are, from what is readily being made aware; the ONLY ones who are actually (without any success) trying to make these Ecumenistic occurrences, by Moscow, come to light.

They are NOT “…forces…”!

If they are indeed “…forces…” then they are “…forces…” confessing as best they can,

Orthodoxy.

John

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sue57
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Post by sue57 »

Does anyone else reading this, wonder about the actual political implications of recieving a religious leader who has been percieved as the enemy of (Chinese) Communism? Could this possibly be a gesture on the part of the MP to further try to distance the Church from its tragic Soviet associations? Of course, to allow the DL behind the iconostasis was a terrible error in judgement, no quesion. BUT if the Church truely is going to be part, wholly and completely, of the future of Russia, some recognition of foreign leaders (as in their visiting an Orthodox Cathedral, etc.) may come about.
Now, I view the MP's association with the WCC as horrifying, it is the major reservation I have about unification, and I admit, this does sound like "let's all be touchy feely New Age Buddhists." A dreadful affront to Orthodoxy. But from the historical/political context, in '58, when the DL fled to India, the CIA met with members of his family about the possibility of recruiting Tibetan refugees to work with them. Buddhism certainly has been appropriated by every liberal, hippie type with ideas completely at odds with the truths of Orthodoxy, but the DL himself has been consistently anti-Communist.

I am NOT trying to stir up any trouble, WHATSOEVER! I'm just wondering how this incident "spins" Moscow in the eyes of the world. I'm merely asking this in political terms, I don't in anyway condone the MP's actions, if anything, if he really wants unification, he needs to sincerely and significantly act in an according way.

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Schism Jumper
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Post by Schism Jumper »

I find the original post troublesome, though I am also deeply troubled by some of the responses. How much do we know about this situation? Do we even know for certain that it happened at all? Have we now set new criteria for condemning Orthodox bishops? What of the canons which seem to speak against these types of invidivualistic judgments? (for example the 13th canon of the 1st-2nd council) What are these judgments based on? News stories which were written by people who possibly have little understanding of Orthodoxy, and which have probably been translated through multiple languages? One can read misquotes and outright lies in newspapers in America every day. Who has double and triple checked to make sure that nothing was lost or misrepresented when trying to translate things across cultural and linguistic boundaries?

Consider these two sentences:

"I would like to relay to you to Patriarch Alexis II's most cordial
words. Your visit always brings peace to our earth and understanding
between confessions."

Does anyone really think that this report should be taken as a precise description and record of what actually happened and was said? I would think that after the whole Jayson Blair fiasco, Americans would be more skeptical of "news reports". Most of us could probably pick up a newspaper on any given day and find factual errors and/or distortions (think about the stories you've read in papers about Orthodoxy; having only 1 or 2 errors is normally about as good as it gets). Just yesterday I was listening to a Philadelphia radio talk show host who read a news report related to the secularizing of Christmas. One of the people "quoted" in the story called in to say that not only had he been misquoted, but that he had had entire quotes put into his mouth that he had never said. The truth, according to him, was opposite of what the "news story" was reporting (and it was not an issue open to interpretation--one of the parties was, intentionally or unintentionally, deceiving people).

It was the Dalai Lama who supposedly said, "I come to this church as a sign of a very deep respect". Later, the reporter (or some other person we don't know the identity of) said, "As a sign of extreme respect, the Dalai Lama was even led behind the iconostase of the orthodox church". Maybe he was, and if that could be confirmed it would surely be scandalous. Yet, it is no more scandalous than some things that went on in Constantinople for centuries when it came to the Emperors vis-a-vis Hagia Sophia, not to speak of "scandalous" things done even by saints through the centuries. This isn't to justify the event if it happened, but I think we need to keep some perspective here. There are far greater abuses happening in our own neighborhoods. And even if this did happen I have to wonder if this thread is the time or place to launch attacks on ecumenism. We traditionalists protest too much, and it will be the death of us. Orthodoxy will survive despite us, not because of us (as we fancy).

If a man does not know to what port he is sailing, no wind is favorable. (Seneca)

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AP Photos

Post by Joshua F »

For those who couldn't be there:

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