Relics

[Aristokles]

Cause remember - I am GOA - and the article on the GOA website states: "... yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic ... le8089.asp

Somehow, TomΣ, with both of us in the GOA I am astounded at how we see, read, and believe so differently.
Having now read your referenced article three times through, I just don't see that your out of context excerpt says what you maintain it does.
You are far too an intelligent man for this. The article starts with this statement and the reading of the entire piece reveals that, once again, one must interpret the "can" as "may". After all, in the Lord ALL things are possible.
You have lept to a wrong conclusion.
The Church does not state DOGMATICALLY about Salvation ONLY within the confines of Orthodoxy (we leave that for the RC's), but that we are certain that the path to Salvation does exist in the Fullness of Orthodoxy. Outside that, we don't know.
Knowing you, you would resist any dogmatic statements on just about anything concerning the Church. First the Church is too dogmatic; then it's too open. You now criticize a seemingly dogmatic position (and one which in fact does not exist) but it is a position allowing exactly the fuzziness you seem to embrace.
Honestly Tom, you seem intent on being argumentative even if you have to alternately argue from both sides of any issue.

Demetri, the weary

[TomS]

[... one must interpret the "can" as "may". After all, in the Lord ALL things are possible.

Typical GOA theological doublespeak used to cover all bases.

Really Aristokles, you must learn to follow a line of thought to its conclusion.

And it goes like this: IF salvation CAN be found outside the Church of Christ, then it can also be found outside of the Traditions of the Church and in other non-christian religions. And if YOU believe that, then you are at the minimum, an ecumenist and a branch theorist.

[Aristokles]

[... one must interpret the "can" as "may". After all, in the Lord ALL things are possible.

Typical GOA theological doublespeak used to cover all bases.

Really Aristokles, you must learn to follow a line of thought to its conclusion.

And it goes like this: IF salvation CAN be found outside the Church of Christ, then it can also be found outside of the Traditions of the Church and in other non-christian religions. And if YOU believe that, then you are at the minimum, an ecumenist and a branch theorist.

Typical TomΣ equivocations and back-pedaling. The only "double-speak" here is YOURS. You persisting in defending your own erroneous interpretations - and apparently do so only so as to not concede a point. The early statement in that article was the 'take-off' point for the entire discussion addressed there. You took it as the conclusion. YOUR logical discipline is faulty. Perhaps I erred in calling you an 'intellegent' man.
You may possess 'papers' from the archdiocese that show you entered the Church. That 'conversion' appears to all but perhaps you alone to have been disingenious.
Good luck in your quest...you'll get no help on any internet forum.

Demetri

[TomS]

If salvation CAN be found outside the Church of Christ, then it MAY also be found outside of the Traditions of the Church and in other non-christian religions.

So, then you agree with the above statement?

[Aristokles]

If salvation CAN be found outside the Church of Christ, then it MAY also be found outside of the Traditions of the Church and in other non-christian religions.

So, then you agree with the above statement?

What a laugh...
If you, TomS, had instead even opined:

"The sky is blue"

I would be forced, knowing you, to not agree because you had not qualified this hypothetical statement with:
1) "on a planet named Earth"
2) "on a clear and cloudless day"
3) "during daylight hours"

It seems an hopeless endeavor to agree or disagree with you at all. I personally don't even worry about your burning issue-du-jour...I'm already Orthodox.
You will persist until you parse yourself into apostasy and then refuse to admit that fact by maintaining your opinion OVER the Church rather than examining YOUR opinion and why it may differ from the Church. Assuming YOUR opinion is always correct and the standard by which you guage the Church is exactly a**backwards.

I'll not play your pointless games.

Demetri

[TomS]

I expected as much. You either do not, or cannot, explain the position of your Church on the above statement.

It is really very simple -- Does your Church support the idea that there MAY be salvation outside of the Church of Christ?

If the answer is YES, then it is a house of cards. Your Orthodoxy will not save you. In fact, if that is the case then there is no reason then to BE Orthodox. I COULD be a Protestant, a Mormon, a Buddhist, anything, and still be saved -> your Church says so.

[savva26]

Not to but in here between you to but I think Aristokes answered your question before when he said:

.
The Church does not state DOGMATICALLY about Salvation ONLY within the confines of Orthodoxy (we leave that for the RC's), but that we are certain that the path to Salvation does exist in the Fullness of Orthodoxy. Outside that, we don't know.

Nicholas (Savva)